Aug. 7, 2024

163 - Fire Fundamentals pt 11 - Soot in Fire Safety Engineering

163 - Fire Fundamentals pt 11 - Soot in Fire Safety Engineering
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Fire Science Show

Soot is perhaps the most complex product of combustion, and at the same time one of the most profound for our everyday fire safety engineering. The topic of soot is not getting much love in the world of fire science, so I’ve chosen to give you a broad introduction to this subject. In this episode of fire fundamentals we will go through:

·         Soot creation from chemical perspective;

·         Soot creation from practical perspective;

·         Soot effects on radiation, toxicity and obscuration;

·         Extinction coefficient and specific extinction coefficient;

·         Soot yield and surrogate value of soot yield for complex fuels.

If you would like to follow up on this episode with some reading, I highly recommend:

·         Bart Merci and Tarek Beji book „Fluid Mechanics Aspects of Fire and Smoke Dynamics in Enclosures”

·         Jose Torero lecture “Prof. Jose Torero - Fire: A Story of Fascination, Familiarity and Fear” available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIY0litILRA&t=2082s

·         W. Węgrzyński and G. Vigne, Experimental and numerical evaluation of the influence of the soot yield on the visibility in smoke in CFD analysis – the paper with the source of our surrogate value of soot yield for complex fuels in fire safety engineering https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0379711217301327?via%3Dihub

·         G. Mulholland, C. Croarkin Specific extinction coefficient of flame generated smoke https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/1099-1018%28200009/10%2924%3A5%3C227%3A%3AAID-FAM742%3E3.0.CO%3B2-9

·         W. Węgrzyński, P. Antosiewicz, J. Fangrat, Multi-Wavelength Densitometer for Experimental Research on the Optical Characteristics of Smoke Layers, https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10694-021-01139-5

·         K. Börger, A. Belt, T. Schultze, L. Arnold, Remote Sensing of the Light-Obscuring Smoke Properties in Real-Scale Fires Using a Photometric Measurement Method, https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10694-023-01470-z

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The Fire Science Show is produced by the Fire Science Media in collaboration with OFR Consultants. Thank you to the podcast sponsor for their continuous support towards our mission.

Chapters

00:00 - Exploring Soot in Fire Science

15:19 - Soot Formation in Combustion

22:39 - The Hazards of Soot in Fires

34:14 - Understanding Smoke and Soot in Fires

Transcript
WEBVTT

00:00:00.221 --> 00:00:01.786
Hello and welcome to the Fire Science Show.

00:00:01.786 --> 00:00:20.888
In fire science there are some topics and phenomena that sometimes are not very well discussed yet they are fundamental or at least very, very important to our everyday engineering and I have a feeling that the subject of today's episode, the soot, is one of those topics.

00:00:20.888 --> 00:00:22.952
We don't talk about it that much.

00:00:22.952 --> 00:00:36.743
I don't see that much research on soot formation in fires and soot effects in fires around, yet it is something very, very foundational to how we assess the fire safety in our buildings.

00:00:36.743 --> 00:00:42.825
And in this episode let me try to introduce you to the concept of the soot.

00:00:42.825 --> 00:00:52.713
And this also kind of ties in with the previous episode where we've discussed the historical experiments on visibility in smoke by gin.

00:00:52.713 --> 00:01:00.963
So suit formation and suit in fires is something you could even call a follow-up to that previous podcast episode.

00:01:00.963 --> 00:01:07.082
In this episode we'll try to answer some important and interesting questions related to soot.

00:01:07.082 --> 00:01:19.683
First, we're going to try to figure out where does the soot come from in fires and why in different types of combustion you'd find different amounts of soot as a result of that combustion.

00:01:19.683 --> 00:01:23.972
We're going to discuss what does it do once it appears in your fire.

00:01:23.972 --> 00:01:24.861
Where does it go?

00:01:24.861 --> 00:01:26.822
Which phenomena does it do once it appears in your fire?

00:01:26.822 --> 00:01:27.183
Where does it go?

00:01:27.183 --> 00:01:33.329
Which phenomena does it influence in the fires, and which of those are actually important to us for our everyday fire safety engineering?

00:01:33.329 --> 00:01:39.036
Then we're going to talk about how do we include soot in our design?

00:01:39.036 --> 00:01:39.796
Because, yes, we do.

00:01:39.796 --> 00:01:45.352
We actually do include that in our design and especially in our modeling.

00:01:45.352 --> 00:01:46.099
So a lot of important questions.

00:01:46.099 --> 00:01:47.947
There's going to be a bit of chemistry.

00:01:47.947 --> 00:01:50.409
There's going to be some stories in the episode.

00:01:50.409 --> 00:01:51.584
I hope you'll enjoy them.

00:01:51.584 --> 00:01:59.754
If you don't like soot at all, feel free to use a magical number for soothield of 0.1 gram per gram.

00:01:59.754 --> 00:02:08.750
You can consider that as almost conservative assumption for fuels with unknown composition and go on with your life as a fire safety engineer.

00:02:08.750 --> 00:02:21.193
If you want to understand why we've proposed this number as something that you could call conservative, then stay with me in the podcast episode, because I'm going to answer that question as well.

00:02:21.193 --> 00:02:23.948
So, yep, it's fire fundamentals.

00:02:23.948 --> 00:02:26.675
We're going to learn some fire science.

00:02:26.675 --> 00:02:32.312
Really happy to introduce you to the concepts of soot, let's spin the intro and jump into the episode.

00:02:36.979 --> 00:02:38.600
Welcome to the fire science show.

00:02:38.600 --> 00:02:42.063
My name is Wojciech Wigrzyń and I will be your host.

00:02:42.063 --> 00:03:01.576
This podcast is brought to you in collaboration with OFR Consultants.

00:03:01.576 --> 00:03:04.538
Ofr is the UK's leading fire risk consultancy.

00:03:04.538 --> 00:03:15.371
Its globally established team has developed a reputation for preeminent fire engineering expertise, with colleagues working across the world to help protect people, property and environment.

00:03:15.371 --> 00:03:31.145
Established in the UK in 2016 as a startup business of two highly experienced fire engineering consultants, the business has grown phenomenally in just seven years, with offices across the country in seven locations, from Edinburgh to Bath, and now employing more than a hundred professionals.

00:03:31.145 --> 00:03:42.806
Colleagues are on a mission to continually explore the challenges that fire creates for clients and society, applying the best research, experience and diligence for effective, tailored fire safety solutions.

00:03:42.806 --> 00:03:53.468
In 2024, ofr will grow its team once more and is always keen to hear from industry professionals who would like to collaborate on fire safety futures.

00:03:53.468 --> 00:03:56.448
This year, get in touch at ofrconsultantscom.

00:03:57.961 --> 00:04:00.650
Okay, let's go soot in fires and smoke in fires.

00:04:00.650 --> 00:04:12.294
Long before I became a podcaster, and perhaps even long before I became a published author in scientific fire journals, I was already annoyed by the suit.

00:04:12.294 --> 00:04:42.144
You see, the reason I became a scientist is to seek answers to questions that were annoying to me, and most of those questions were related to kind of magic numbers and where does stuff come from and when you work as a fire safety engineer when you work as a smoke control engineer, actually, and you do a lot of CFD simulations you very quickly realize that visibility in smoke is the thing that you're playing with.

00:04:42.144 --> 00:04:47.855
Like I once put a claim that we should stop calling it fire safety engineering.

00:04:47.855 --> 00:05:02.845
We should call it visibility engineering, because, in the end, what we are doing is to try and build systems in our buildings that would maintain the visibility in smoke for the required duration of the time to escape the building.

00:05:02.845 --> 00:05:13.024
In essence, that's what we have been doing and that is what we largely still are doing, based on the assumption that we need to keep the evacuation conditions tenable.

00:05:13.024 --> 00:05:17.827
We have the tenability criteria related to visibility, temperature, heat flux and so on, so on.

00:05:17.827 --> 00:05:27.170
The visibility is always the first one that passes, and there's an episode of this podcast I think it's episode three with Gabriel Avigne, where we discussed this at large.

00:05:27.750 --> 00:05:37.591
Now, as you realize that your visibility in smoke is the driving factor, there are some ways to tune the visibility.

00:05:37.591 --> 00:05:40.281
Now, perhaps tune is the wrong word in here.

00:05:40.281 --> 00:05:42.805
There are ways to fiddle with visibility.

00:05:42.805 --> 00:05:51.372
You put a lot of stuff into your models and you put some numbers into your models that highly influence how much smoke you're going to have.

00:05:51.372 --> 00:05:57.682
One of those numbers is the soot yield factor, and that's the number that defines how much soot is produced in your fires.

00:05:57.682 --> 00:06:03.682
Now if you start playing with this, you immediately observe that the visibility in smoke changes.

00:06:03.682 --> 00:06:07.488
Basically, because you change the amount of smoke, it must alter the visibility.

00:06:07.488 --> 00:06:09.112
The effect is quite profound.

00:06:09.593 --> 00:06:19.463
Now, when you start doing your due diligence as an engineer and you want to give your best, what value are you supposed to put in your model?

00:06:19.463 --> 00:06:32.007
And as long as you can find values for very simple liquid fuels or gases methane, ethylene, methanol, propanol, stuff like that you can find suit yield values for that.

00:06:32.007 --> 00:06:37.949
Once you start venturing into complex fuels, you will soon find some crazy numbers.

00:06:37.949 --> 00:06:43.072
Like for polyurethane foam, you can find values up to, I think, 0.18.

00:06:43.072 --> 00:06:53.331
And yeah, the scatter is just tremendous and there's no suit-healed value for a vehicle or suit-healed value for a kiosk in a shopping mall.

00:06:53.331 --> 00:06:57.069
You have to figure out those values on your own and that's a heavy burden.

00:06:57.069 --> 00:07:17.970
I think that's a heavy burden for an engineer to come up with values of their own when scientific consensus does not exist in a specific field, like we don't have a scientifically sound value of soot yield for a very complex fuel package in a very odd architectural setting.

00:07:17.970 --> 00:07:32.233
We have values measured in a small scale laboratory apparatus for quite fewer fuels and yeah, because it's quite a heavy burden for an engineer, I decided that it's a science and I could do this scientifically and in fact I did.

00:07:32.699 --> 00:07:38.156
Then I've met Gabriel Levinier and he was also researching that.

00:07:38.156 --> 00:07:38.999
He's also an engineer.

00:07:38.999 --> 00:07:45.473
He also came to very similar conclusions, as I did with the challenges related to the use of soothed yield in modeling.

00:07:45.473 --> 00:08:07.482
He was doing sensitivity analysis for different parameters that go into the equations that yield the visibility in the end, and he found that soothed yield was one of the variables, or the amount of smoke that's a product of soothed yield was one of the key variables that changed the visibility value in the end in the biggest way.

00:08:07.482 --> 00:08:31.060
I saw his presentation in SFP Europe first conference in Copenhagen, I believe, and then we've talked, we've talked and then we've repeat his study together, experimentally and with CFD modeling, with FDS, with ANSYS, and we came to the same conclusion Suitability is extremely important, extremely impactful in our analysis.

00:08:31.060 --> 00:08:42.947
I'm going to continue the story later on in the episode when I'll introduce you to the value that we found as something that we believe is fairly safe for complex field packages for engineers to use.

00:08:43.500 --> 00:08:53.951
But before we get there, I want us all to better understand soot, to better understand what is the thing that we are talking about.

00:08:53.951 --> 00:08:55.982
What is the thing that we are dealing here about?

00:08:55.982 --> 00:09:01.974
So let's try and first answer the profound question what is soot?

00:09:01.974 --> 00:09:09.142
The profound question what is soot?

00:09:09.142 --> 00:09:11.866
So answering this question requires some chemistry, and let's start with chemistry of simple combustion.

00:09:11.886 --> 00:09:12.989
Take a simplest fuel.

00:09:12.989 --> 00:09:14.972
You can get like methane.

00:09:14.972 --> 00:09:19.830
When you write an equation for the combustion of methane, you have methane.

00:09:19.830 --> 00:09:24.873
You add oxygen, you receive carbon dioxide, you receive water.

00:09:24.873 --> 00:09:27.400
These are products of perfect combustion.

00:09:27.400 --> 00:09:36.815
And the more complex fuels you put into those equation, you eventually, if it's a perfect combustion, it's going to end in the same way Carbon dioxide, water.

00:09:36.815 --> 00:09:41.828
If there were other species in your fuel, you're, of course, going to get other products.

00:09:41.828 --> 00:09:51.350
If you add nitrogen, you're going to get cyanide and so on, but at large, the products of perfect combustion are gases and water.

00:09:51.350 --> 00:09:57.847
Now, the combustion is not always perfect and sometimes you'll get byproducts of that.

00:09:57.847 --> 00:10:00.072
One of the byproducts is soot.

00:10:00.352 --> 00:10:01.681
But that's the short story.

00:10:01.681 --> 00:10:04.361
You can go here a little bit deeper.

00:10:04.361 --> 00:10:14.928
If you think about combustion, the first reaction equation I told you you put your fuel, you put your oxidizer, you receive the products.

00:10:14.928 --> 00:10:16.769
This is actually a lie.

00:10:16.769 --> 00:10:18.250
Well, it's not a lie.

00:10:18.250 --> 00:10:28.778
It's a simplification, a massive, massive simplification, because it's not a simple reaction from your basic fuel to your products.

00:10:29.640 --> 00:10:47.586
In reality, what happens is there are dozens, if not hundreds, of different chemical reactions ongoing in a combustion zone in which the compounds go to different transitions into radicals, they merge, they break, they change their forms.

00:10:47.586 --> 00:10:52.331
There's a ton of chemistry that's happening even for the simplest fuels.

00:10:52.331 --> 00:11:13.394
Actually, in some papers that are on the subject of chemical kinetics, and there's a paper on modeling studies of formation of aromatics in laminar, acetylene and ethylene flames, and these guys actually identify more than 500 different reactions that happen inside the flame.

00:11:13.394 --> 00:11:18.850
That's the complexity of the reactions that are happening in our flames.

00:11:18.850 --> 00:11:25.652
Now, another thing is those reactions happen with different probabilities and different speed.

00:11:25.652 --> 00:11:47.609
They don't happen infinitely fast, they take time to resolve and, as an effect of this complexity, it's not all molecules of your fuel that will go through the complete transition into the final products, into the last final step of that reaction that would yield you this carbon dioxide and water.

00:11:47.609 --> 00:11:51.490
Some of them will stop somewhere along the way.

00:11:51.490 --> 00:11:53.687
Some of the fuel may not react at all.

00:11:53.788 --> 00:12:17.390
Even there is, let's say, a competition between the reactions inside the flame, which of the reaction will occur, and, depending on the fuel that you put in and the conditions in which the combustion takes place, different reactions will complete before other ones and sometimes because of that you will receive an incomplete product.

00:12:17.390 --> 00:12:20.024
This is why a combustion of very simple fuel such as methane can be incomplete.

00:12:20.024 --> 00:12:21.748
It's not that we've stopped in the middle of the equation, it's just.

00:12:21.748 --> 00:12:23.493
The equation is a simplification of a much, much as methane can be incomplete.

00:12:23.493 --> 00:12:33.363
It's not that we've stopped in the middle of the equation, it's just the equation is a simplification of a much, much, much more complex phenomena that happen inside the flame.

00:12:33.363 --> 00:12:36.769
Now why this leads to formation of soot.

00:12:36.769 --> 00:12:38.953
So the reason is carbon.

00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:44.967
Of course, carbon is a molecule, is the most social of all molecules, I would say.

00:12:44.967 --> 00:12:50.695
Carbon loves to bond with everything, and carbon also loves to bond with itself.

00:12:50.695 --> 00:13:02.416
Now, another interesting aspect of carbon is that when it bonds with other carbons, they tend to create those circular structures, the rings.

00:13:02.416 --> 00:13:05.008
We call them aromatic substances.

00:13:05.008 --> 00:13:09.267
Those are rings that consist of six, sometimes five, carbons.

00:13:09.267 --> 00:13:15.725
They close a loop and that's a very stable chemical compound once it forms a ring.

00:13:15.725 --> 00:13:18.712
This is why those rings are so persistent.

00:13:19.114 --> 00:13:27.052
Now those rings can combine and form more complicated structures that consist of multiple rings of carbon.

00:13:27.052 --> 00:13:40.277
This is where we start calling them polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, pahs, and those substances are in a focal light because they're also connected with cancer and stuff like that.

00:13:40.277 --> 00:13:41.860
So they're pretty nasty stuff.

00:13:41.860 --> 00:13:57.020
Anyway, at some point point, if enough of those rings combine with each other, once enough pahs combine with each other, there are four molecules big enough that we start calling them soot.

00:13:57.020 --> 00:14:01.466
This is either true reactions between pahs between themselves.

00:14:01.466 --> 00:14:21.908
There's also a transition called the H-abstraction, c2h2 addition, haca mechanism Very complicated stuff, but there are models, chemical models, that explain us how those particles connect with each other to form a really large particle.

00:14:21.908 --> 00:14:27.475
That's a collection of those rings and those flakes are called the soot.

00:14:27.475 --> 00:14:32.789
This is exactly soot and this is how, chemically, the soot is born.

00:14:33.331 --> 00:14:40.331
Now, another thing that you must recognize is the fact that soot consists of carbon and carbon is fuel.

00:14:40.331 --> 00:14:41.714
Right, you can burn carbon.

00:14:41.714 --> 00:14:45.188
So why doesn't soot burn itself in a fire?

00:14:45.188 --> 00:14:54.602
In fact, it does In most or, in many cases, a lot of soot that's created within the flame itself is burned down in the flame.

00:14:54.602 --> 00:15:05.932
Well, outside flame is a very small region of space in which the chemical reactions and release of heat happens, but that's not the entirety of what we see.

00:15:05.932 --> 00:15:18.480
Then you have regions of very high temperature beside the chemical reaction region or above the chemical reaction region if you are under the gravity of Earth and buoyancy causes flame to go up.

00:15:19.081 --> 00:15:20.844
Now for different fuels.

00:15:20.844 --> 00:15:41.813
We have a property of the fuel which is called the laminar smoke point height, and this is basically a property, a measurement of how high the flame of a specific material or of a specific fuel can be before it starts emitting soot outside of the flame.

00:15:41.813 --> 00:16:07.139
So if your soot is created in a reaction but then it enters very hot region of the flame, it undergoes further reactions, it undergoes further transitions, it oxidates, it basically burns out, acts as a fuel and turns into new products which hopefully are the simplest carbon dioxide and water if the combustion is complete.

00:16:07.139 --> 00:16:09.365
Now for different types of fuels.

00:16:09.365 --> 00:16:11.071
This range is different.

00:16:11.071 --> 00:16:14.249
For methane that's almost 0.3 meters.

00:16:14.249 --> 00:16:21.994
So you can have 30 centimeters or 29 centimeters flame of methane and still do not see any soot coming out of that flame.

00:16:21.994 --> 00:16:25.634
For polystyrene, that's only one and a half centimeters the height at after which you're going to see soot coming out of that flame.

00:16:25.634 --> 00:16:28.833
For polystyrene, that's only one and a half centimeter the height at after which you're going to see soot.

00:16:28.833 --> 00:16:50.092
So if you burn polystyrene and your flame is higher than one and a half centimeter, you're going to see some soot escaping the flame and not oxidizing in time, not being completely oxidated, not being burned out by the flame, and it's released into the environment and when it escapes the flame we start calling that smoke.

00:16:50.514 --> 00:16:53.022
There are interesting stories actually about that.

00:16:53.022 --> 00:17:00.263
I love the story that Jose Torero gives about the candle, and there were multiple lectures by Jose.

00:17:00.263 --> 00:17:07.681
I'm going to link one that I like the most in the podcast show notes, so you're very welcome to watch it.

00:17:07.681 --> 00:17:08.603
It's really good.

00:17:08.603 --> 00:17:10.125
But long story short.

00:17:10.125 --> 00:17:11.409
Think about candle.

00:17:11.910 --> 00:17:20.487
Candle is is a product of engineering design, especially one particular part of candle and that is the wick.

00:17:20.487 --> 00:17:30.805
So, as I just told you, there's this length of a flame at which the soot will oxidate perfectly and will leave no smoke.

00:17:30.805 --> 00:17:41.760
So if you're using candles to light up your castle, you don't want smoke entering your castle because it's going to smell bad and it's going to get dirty and it's going to be problematic.

00:17:41.760 --> 00:17:45.487
So you don't want your candles to actually release soot.

00:17:45.487 --> 00:17:53.727
You can solve that by consulting with your nearby combustion specialist or attending a combustion symposium in the neighboring kingdom.

00:17:53.727 --> 00:18:02.506
But, assuming you're lighting your castle with candles, you probably don't have access to computational fluid modeling and the achievements of modern times.

00:18:02.506 --> 00:18:04.852
So you have to sort it in a different way.

00:18:04.852 --> 00:18:11.440
And they actually have sorted it out by observing the flames of the candle and realizing some basic properties of the flame.

00:18:11.840 --> 00:18:22.491
The fact that the candle releases or does not release soot is related to the flame height, and the flame height is related to how much fuel you put into the combustion.

00:18:22.491 --> 00:18:25.509
Now the fuel in a candle goes through wick.

00:18:25.509 --> 00:18:31.630
Basically, you have some sort of wax, some sort of solid fuel that melts.

00:18:31.630 --> 00:18:46.730
Then you have a piece of wick cloth that is drenched in this molten wax and because of capillary forces, the wax can travel upwards through the wick.

00:18:46.730 --> 00:18:55.672
Now it reaches a point where it's very hot, so it evaporates and vapors of wax burn out, creating your flame.

00:18:55.672 --> 00:18:58.848
So that's basically how a candle works.

00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:10.630
Now, if your wick is too large, you're going to take too much fuel from the wax and your flame is going to be too high, and if it's too high it's going to emit soot and you don't want that.

00:19:10.630 --> 00:19:21.188
So the way to deal with that is to manually trim the wick whenever it starts producing soot, but that would be annoying and a lot of work.

00:19:21.188 --> 00:19:54.259
So actually, a specific type of wick was invented, one that it's made from two weaves and those weaves are weaved together in such a way that the wick bends a bit and once it bends, a part of that wick is gonna burn off in the flame region, basically maintaining the same length over the time, because as it grows, as you burn off wax and more wick is exposed, it's going to bend more and it's going to burn out the tip of it.

00:19:54.259 --> 00:19:59.068
So, again, it's short enough to not cause sootiness in your flame.

00:19:59.068 --> 00:20:02.823
And you can explain this with chemistry.

00:20:02.823 --> 00:20:04.205
I just told you how it works.

00:20:04.205 --> 00:20:19.076
Basically, the soot is produced in the flame and it's oxidated before it can escape the flame, and as no soot escapes, then you have a beautiful source of light and you don't create much smoke, and your king is very happy with the cleanliness of his castle.

00:20:19.625 --> 00:20:22.434
Now you can explain that also with a thermophysical number.

00:20:22.434 --> 00:20:24.612
We call it the Damkohler number.

00:20:24.612 --> 00:20:29.957
Damkohler number is a ratio between the reaction rate and the transport rate.

00:20:29.957 --> 00:20:32.173
Basically, it's what I've just told you.

00:20:32.173 --> 00:20:42.891
So reactions, the transport is how quickly the particles fly through the flame before they leave the candle flame and they are not able to oxidize anymore.

00:20:42.891 --> 00:20:45.016
Reaction rate is how quickly they burn.

00:20:45.016 --> 00:20:59.871
So if those two things are in perfect alignment, if the reactions take just this much time as it takes for the particles to be transported through your flame, then you're not going to get any byproducts that you don't want in your reaction.

00:20:59.871 --> 00:21:08.653
It's funny because the medieval engineers or Renaissance engineers who were working on the candle wick, they didn't know Damkohler number.

00:21:08.653 --> 00:21:13.432
Damkohler was not alive yet at that point, but still they figured out.

00:21:14.045 --> 00:21:17.971
I've also learned about a very interesting thing that's happening in Japan.

00:21:17.971 --> 00:21:27.156
So they have those very expensive inks traditional, extremely expensive inks for calligraphy.

00:21:27.156 --> 00:21:36.028
Calligraphy is a very popular thing in the Far East and there is a very specific black ink that they would sell for a large amount of money.

00:21:36.028 --> 00:21:42.132
And where that ink comes from is also a story of soot, and actually it's also a story of a candle.

00:21:42.132 --> 00:21:51.355
So I've learned that the materials that are used to produce this expensive ink is actually soot from candle flames.

00:21:51.355 --> 00:22:13.027
So basically, they have this soot factory, which consists of hundreds and hundreds of candles, and those candles are built in a very specific way so that the wick is a little longer than necessary, a little longer than necessary for the complete combustion or complete oxidation of the soot within the flame range.

00:22:13.027 --> 00:22:39.093
What happens then is that those candles start to produce a tiny amount of soot, so a little bit of smoke escapes the flame from those candles, and above those candles there are some surfaces at which this soot would deposit, and the people would actually gather that soot that deposited on those plates, and then this soot is used to create the ink.

00:22:39.513 --> 00:22:45.382
So I assume that this soot has some properties that are very attractive to the ink makers.

00:22:45.382 --> 00:22:58.678
Most likely it has a very specific particle size distribution that works very well when mixed with other substances to create the ink and gives the blackness that they look for with ink.

00:22:58.678 --> 00:23:24.717
However, from my perspective, from the perspective of a fire safety engineer and someone who's passionate about combustion and all of those stuff, what these guys did actually is they manually trimmed the wicks to get a damkuller number at which a very specific particle distribution is produced, like they don't even know, most likely, what damkuller number is and they have no clue.

00:23:24.717 --> 00:23:32.326
They've done that but through years of experience and this is some generation to generation art of creating of that ink.

00:23:32.326 --> 00:23:35.653
So the method to do that is very, very old.

00:23:35.653 --> 00:23:42.230
They found a number the ratio between the reaction and transport that produces soot that they like.

00:23:42.652 --> 00:23:49.817
Now the funny thing is they do it with candles and I find it quite dangerous because people are walking through a sooty environment.

00:23:49.817 --> 00:23:52.691
That's really horrible and we're going to talk about that in a moment.

00:23:52.691 --> 00:24:06.944
But I think with fire science, knowledge of thermodynamics and chemical reactions, we could just create a simple burner that would have this particular dump color number and would produce the soot that they need at an industry scale.

00:24:06.944 --> 00:24:12.417
So they would not have to collect tiny amount of soot from their candles.

00:24:12.417 --> 00:24:21.990
However, yeah, it's a craft, it's a handcraft and I guess this gives some magic and gives a justification to the price point for the ink.

00:24:22.652 --> 00:24:33.557
So here you have learned the story of soot creation from a chemical perspective, from thermodynamic perspective and simply from observing the real world.

00:24:33.557 --> 00:24:36.730
This is how soot comes into light In fires.

00:24:36.730 --> 00:24:37.531
It's the same.

00:24:37.531 --> 00:24:41.048
You also have chemical reactions in the flame, hundreds of them.

00:24:41.048 --> 00:24:44.557
The more complex the fuel, the more complex the reactions will be.

00:24:44.557 --> 00:24:47.112
A lot of those reactions are competing with each other.

00:24:47.112 --> 00:24:48.516
Not all of them will complete.

00:24:48.516 --> 00:24:58.701
Then the incomplete combustion products will start merging to form soot particles and those soot particles will transition into outer regions of your flames.

00:24:58.701 --> 00:25:14.220
In those outer regions, if there still is enough oxygen left and some heat that allows for oxidation, they will oxidize and disappear, and if there's not, they're going to transport into your building, creating problems with visibility in smoke that we have to deal with as engineers.

00:25:15.022 --> 00:25:17.317
One question that you could ask is there soot in the flame?

00:25:17.317 --> 00:25:19.470
And that could be a very interesting question.

00:25:19.470 --> 00:25:26.132
In fact, yes, there is, and in fact that's a really really important scientific problem how much soot there is in the flame.

00:25:26.132 --> 00:25:34.376
If you consider effects of the soot, one of the most profound effects of the soot is related to the combustion science.

00:25:34.376 --> 00:25:43.232
People who study the flame itself or the combustion processes itself, the sootiness in the flame changes the color of their flame.

00:25:43.232 --> 00:25:47.971
So if there's no soot in the flame, the flame is going to be blue or almost invisible.

00:25:47.971 --> 00:25:50.805
That's when you have minimal amount of soot in there.

00:25:50.805 --> 00:25:54.374
That's why methanol flames are almost invisible.

00:25:54.374 --> 00:26:04.395
There's this famous YouTube video of a Formula One car burning and the driver is escaping and he's shaking a flame from himself and you cannot see the flame.

00:26:04.395 --> 00:26:09.717
That's because he was covered in methanol and methanol produces almost no soot, so the flame is invisible.

00:26:09.717 --> 00:26:19.955
Once you start adding soot to the flame, it becomes more and more yellow and actually the yellow color of the flame is a product of soot being present in there.

00:26:20.365 --> 00:26:23.112
Now why it's important for our combustion colleagues?

00:26:23.112 --> 00:26:25.597
Because soot is related to radiation.

00:26:25.597 --> 00:26:28.670
Clean air has emissivity of zero.

00:26:28.670 --> 00:26:37.134
It's clean, it's transparent radiation, which you can test experimentally by going outdoors to a sun and you feel heat on your skin.

00:26:37.134 --> 00:26:58.794
This is because the heat can transport through the atmosphere a little bit of it, being taken by carbon dioxide and methane in the atmosphere, thanks to which we have global warming, but most of it passes through the atmosphere and reaches your skin, depending on the region of the world you are in, causing a pleasant warmth or perhaps even burns.

00:26:59.295 --> 00:27:11.132
Now, once you start adding soot to your gas, to your air, soot has emissivity of almost one because it's black carbon, so it's almost a perfect black poly.

00:27:11.132 --> 00:27:17.836
Once you start adding soot to the air, you start getting a mixture that would have some emissivity.

00:27:17.836 --> 00:27:19.403
What emissivity?

00:27:19.403 --> 00:27:23.679
That depends, of course, on the amount of soot you add, and we'll reach that in a few moments.

00:27:23.679 --> 00:27:27.950
But you basically added a new property to your air.

00:27:27.950 --> 00:27:32.925
It starts participating in radiant heat transfer and in flame.

00:27:32.925 --> 00:27:48.019
If you have soot in your flame, that flame starts emitting heat, starts radiating heat outside of the flame and this heat goes somewhere, can heat up new molecules, can heat up new fuel, can influence the reactions that are happening within the flame.

00:27:48.019 --> 00:28:09.035
So actually, the fact that soot creates radiation, this changes everything in the combustion regime, changes everything in the combustion regime and when you study combustion, when you really try to model those chemical reactions that are happening inside of the flames, the presence of soot changes a lot and is a very, very important condition that you need to consider.

00:28:09.035 --> 00:28:11.246
What other thing it influences?

00:28:11.246 --> 00:28:13.652
From our perspective it influences toxicity for sure.

00:28:14.032 --> 00:28:24.508
So one thing is that soot oxidation would lead to carbon monoxide production and there is an observation that with increased soot production there's an increased carbon monoxide production.

00:28:24.508 --> 00:28:32.414
You can read on that in Bart Mercier's and Tarek Beji's book the Fluid Mechanic Aspects of Fire and Smoke Dynamics in Enclosures.

00:28:32.414 --> 00:28:40.098
Actually that's the book I've read when preparing to this episode a very good read and I always recommend this book.

00:28:40.098 --> 00:28:45.676
So it affects the carbon monoxide production but also the soot itself.

00:28:45.676 --> 00:28:48.855
You can consider it as a vessel.

00:28:48.855 --> 00:28:50.958
It's a very large particle.

00:28:50.958 --> 00:28:58.618
It's a very large particle of carbon that is in the flame is surrounded by other products of incomplete combustion.

00:28:58.618 --> 00:29:05.346
If we assume that soot is created from polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, you cannot assume that all of them form soot.

00:29:05.346 --> 00:29:17.758
Some of them remain in their primal forms and those PAHs do actually sit on the soot particles, so some of them will just land on the soot particle and fly with the soot particle.

00:29:18.204 --> 00:29:20.614
Those particles are connected with cancer.

00:29:20.614 --> 00:29:28.857
Those are connected with serious health issues, so the soot itself is a very toxic or hazardous compound.

00:29:28.857 --> 00:29:32.816
Another aspect of that comes from the size of those particles.

00:29:32.816 --> 00:29:36.630
So they have a really nasty size distribution.

00:29:36.630 --> 00:29:43.400
Most of them would be in the range of, let's say, less than a few micrometers.

00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:46.273
For most of the smokes, less than one micrometer.

00:29:47.226 --> 00:29:57.892
And this is a really, really nasty size that you get, because if the particles are less than 100 micrometers, you can inhale them, so they're going to pass through your nose.

00:29:57.892 --> 00:30:02.490
You can inhale them, so they're going to pass through your nose.

00:30:02.490 --> 00:30:06.436
If they're smaller than 10 micrometers, they can enter the orthorhactic duct.

00:30:06.436 --> 00:30:23.994
So this is when stuff starts getting into your lungs and then the epa classifies the dangerous pollutants actually into groups of, of course, which are larger than one, three micrometers, fine, which are larger than 1-3 micrometers, fine which are smaller than 1-3 micrometers and ultra fine that are smaller than 0.1 micrometer.

00:30:23.994 --> 00:30:31.055
The fine ones, the few micrometers and less they can actually penetrate your blood system.

00:30:31.055 --> 00:30:42.714
So with this size of particles you get all the worst effects you can get you can inhale them, they can get into your lungs and then they can go beyond your lungs.

00:30:43.155 --> 00:30:48.067
This is why soot particles are so dangerous to humans.

00:30:48.067 --> 00:31:09.776
And actually, if I think about my firefighter friends many years ago, you would imagine a firefighter as you know this guy dirty, sweaty, who just rescued someone from a fire, carrying an axe, and this is how the firefighter would look like.

00:31:09.776 --> 00:31:14.964
And the firefighters I know today are the cleanest people I know Like.

00:31:14.964 --> 00:31:20.946
These guys are obsessed with cleanness and there's a reason for that.

00:31:20.946 --> 00:31:37.333
Cancer is a horrible thing in fire departments and it's such a horrible thing that people who risk their lives to save lives of others are at such a large exposure to cancer against substances and sometimes pay a very heavy price for their willingness to help.

00:31:37.994 --> 00:31:47.019
Now they realize this risk comes from soot a lot and they do everything they can to separate themselves from soot.

00:31:47.019 --> 00:31:57.970
That includes cleaning the clothes, that includes specific ways of taking down your clothes, making sure that no soot particles is in contact with your body, any part of your body.

00:31:57.970 --> 00:32:06.941
It's not just respiratory, it's also soot that gathers on your skin that also can penetrate and do harm to your organism.

00:32:06.941 --> 00:32:12.586
So definitely there are toxicological effects of soot.

00:32:12.586 --> 00:32:30.800
Also, if I recall correctly, in my episode with David Purser, when we were discussing the toxicity in fires, david told me that he was able to approximate the amount of toxic gases that a person has inhaled by the amount of soot found in the lungs of a person who has perished.

00:32:30.800 --> 00:32:45.156
So you can actually make this direct connection that if you start inhaling soot in fires, you start inhaling all other stuff that comes with the fire smoke and that can be fatal at some point.

00:32:45.897 --> 00:32:50.979
Finally, the aspect that we are all aware of of soot in fires is the obscuration effects.

00:32:50.979 --> 00:33:13.423
So soot mixing with air, just like when we discussed radiation, it has emissivity factor and because of that, light passing through this, soot starts to be scattered, starts to be absorbed and on the other end of your smoke layer or the smoke plume, you see less light.

00:33:13.423 --> 00:33:16.137
Basically, less light passes through the layer of smoke.

00:33:16.137 --> 00:33:20.330
How much of that passes through layer of smoke?

00:33:20.330 --> 00:33:24.070
That depends on the amount of soot that you had in your smoke.

00:33:24.070 --> 00:33:38.352
Actually it's quite interesting and many people don't realize that, but there's a specific depth of a smoke layer for a specific amount of soot in it, which would make that layer non-transparent.

00:33:38.352 --> 00:33:41.028
It's optical depth of the smoke layer.

00:33:41.028 --> 00:33:54.262
So if there's more soot and the layer is big enough that you basically scatter or absorb all the light, you see black smoke and you don't see anything behind it.

00:33:54.262 --> 00:34:01.888
If there's less than that, the smoke layer is a bit transparent and this property also influences the heat transfer.

00:34:01.888 --> 00:34:04.084
So how much heat does the layer emit?

00:34:04.084 --> 00:34:12.289
So if you have a very diluted smoke, it's going to emit less heat than a very dense smoke layer at the same temperature.

00:34:12.289 --> 00:34:14.161
That's an interesting property of smoke.

00:34:14.641 --> 00:34:22.195
Also, if you have light sources within the smoke, you either see them or not, depending on how dense the smoke layer is.

00:34:22.195 --> 00:34:24.822
We can approximate that.

00:34:24.822 --> 00:34:29.577
So there are ways you can calculate if you're going to see the light or not.

00:34:29.577 --> 00:34:44.465
The simplest way to do that is through the use of Lambert-Beers' law, which basically correlates the light intensity with an exponential relation of the amount of smoke that there is and the length of the optical path.

00:34:44.465 --> 00:34:47.376
So that's one way that would be commonly used.

00:34:47.376 --> 00:35:03.963
It's not a perfect way because it does not account for scattering, it just accounts for absorption, and it accounts for absorption of parallel light lines, and technically it should be used for homogeneous aerosols, and smoke is very heterogeneous.

00:35:03.963 --> 00:35:06.389
We have different particle sizes.

00:35:06.389 --> 00:35:09.621
So it's not a perfect thing, but it's a thing.

00:35:09.621 --> 00:35:10.103
We use it.

00:35:10.103 --> 00:35:13.472
We use it every day in laboratories to measure the smoke obscuration.

00:35:13.472 --> 00:35:18.007
So Lambert-Bierlo is the reason why we can measure smoke.

00:35:18.007 --> 00:35:25.670
If you see lasers in laboratories, those lasers are meant to measure the light obscuration.

00:35:25.780 --> 00:35:33.269
Basically, you shine a very powerful light source through a layer of smoke and measure how much of that light is gone to the smoke.

00:35:33.269 --> 00:35:35.487
Once you measure that, you have transmittance.

00:35:35.487 --> 00:35:37.126
You can have extinction coefficient.

00:35:37.126 --> 00:35:45.307
This is how Gene measured the smoke layers in his experiments in 1970s, and this is exactly how we measure those today as well.

00:35:45.307 --> 00:36:00.313
Now, this is very easy when you're measuring it directly in a physical experiment, but it's a little more complicated when you're trying to calculate that in a computer, because there's no easy way to shine light through smoke layer in a computer.

00:36:00.313 --> 00:36:07.190
You would need a very sophisticated numerical models for that, which we actually do not really use that widely.

00:36:07.190 --> 00:36:15.161
We did some of those based on Lambert-Beer ray tracing and stuff like that, but it's not something I would call mainstream in fire science.

00:36:15.242 --> 00:36:19.248
Yet we do have a very clever trick to account for that.

00:36:19.248 --> 00:36:25.804
So in our smoke simulations we know how much mass of the soot there is in the air.

00:36:25.804 --> 00:36:35.994
We know the mass density of smoke in the air and this is a very simple product of a transport equations in your CFD software.

00:36:35.994 --> 00:36:42.512
So your numerical model basically calculates how much soot there is in every part of your model at every given time.

00:36:42.512 --> 00:36:49.860
Now to go from this into extinction, we need to know basically how much area of the soot particles there is.

00:36:49.860 --> 00:36:54.393
This is a way how we present that and it's called the extinction coefficient.

00:36:54.393 --> 00:37:00.478
Now to calculate the extinction coefficient, you need to know how much extinction coefficient does a gram of a soot bring right.

00:37:00.478 --> 00:37:01.722
So if you know how many grams you have, you need to know how much extinction coefficient does a gram of a soot bring right.

00:37:01.722 --> 00:37:34.563
So if you know how many grams you have, you need to know how much each gram gives, and this is a value that was approximated by George Mulholland in NIST, and he has calculated that this value is basically similar for many, many substances that are releasing flaming smoke at 8.7 square meter per gram, and this value became an FDS default and it's something that you're using every day, even if you do not know that.

00:37:34.563 --> 00:37:46.780
What Mulholland did is he took results from multiple, multiple experiments done in multiple laboratories for multiple substances and he basically found the best fit for that value.

00:37:46.780 --> 00:37:55.235
An interesting thing is that Mulholland did this for red light, emitting laser at 633 nanometers.

00:37:55.235 --> 00:37:58.710
This is the wavelength at which this value was approximated.

00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:03.505
And now we enter another interesting property optical property of smoke.

00:38:03.505 --> 00:38:09.306
So I said that you'll have particles lesser than one micrometer and there's going to be distribution.

00:38:09.306 --> 00:38:13.025
In fact, yes, there will be a distribution of those particles.

00:38:13.025 --> 00:38:21.148
They will have different sizes, they will have different diameters, but smoke is not spheres, it's not perfect spheres.

00:38:21.148 --> 00:38:26.342
It's like flakes of random shapes.

00:38:26.342 --> 00:38:31.820
They can be very long and very thin, they can be flat and almost square, all kinds of shapes and distributions you can get.

00:38:31.820 --> 00:38:40.346
And because you get particles of different shape and actually those particles are in the similar scale as the light wavelengths.

00:38:40.346 --> 00:38:43.621
They interact with light in a different way.

00:38:43.621 --> 00:38:52.085
So different particles of different size will affect the wavelengths in a different way and actually it's kind of profound.

00:38:52.085 --> 00:38:53.288
You can see and measure that.

00:38:53.849 --> 00:39:07.666
Jin in 1970s already has realized that and has provided us some knowledge about the ratios of extinction in different colors of light on the smoke, and he noticed that the differences are profound.

00:39:07.666 --> 00:39:14.168
So when you have the light that is most absorbed by the smoke would be the lower length.

00:39:14.168 --> 00:39:21.793
So let's say the blue light, and we've measured that In fact, yes, the blue light is much more absorbed by the smoke.

00:39:21.793 --> 00:39:27.313
The green light, which is 520 nanometers, is not that much different than blue light.

00:39:27.313 --> 00:39:30.989
The least absorbed is the red light.

00:39:30.989 --> 00:39:35.190
So the red gives you much higher visibility if you think about it.

00:39:35.190 --> 00:39:39.992
And then if you go into infrared spectrum, less and less is actually absorbed by the smoke.

00:39:39.992 --> 00:39:44.431
So the smoke becomes more and more transparent to those photons.

00:39:44.431 --> 00:39:46.797
Now how big is the difference?

00:39:46.797 --> 00:40:01.791
When we were doing our experiments with heptane, we ended up with something like 19 meters of visibility for the blue light and 30 something meters of visibility for the red light.

00:40:01.791 --> 00:40:03.945
So, yeah, that's actually quite a lot.

00:40:03.945 --> 00:40:10.311
That's like twice larger visibility in the red light than in the blue light through the spectrum of the visible light.

00:40:10.311 --> 00:40:12.708
So the difference is actually quite big.

00:40:13.181 --> 00:40:16.608
Now you can actually account for that in modeling if you want it.

00:40:16.608 --> 00:40:26.385
There was another person in NIST her name was Whitman, and they've analyzed the relation of specific smoke extinction coefficient with wavelength and proposed the best fit.

00:40:26.385 --> 00:40:36.137
That gives you an exponential low that allows you to estimate the value of your extinction coefficient specific extinction coefficient at different lights.

00:40:36.137 --> 00:40:37.204
So you could use that.

00:40:37.204 --> 00:40:42.920
Could use that.

00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:49.521
Another thing that you could use this property is because different fuels will produce different smoke distributions and different particles will create different patterns of how light is absorbed.

00:40:49.521 --> 00:40:55.960
You can actually use multicolor densitometers to check out what the smoke is composed of.

00:40:55.960 --> 00:41:08.974
Or you could even and there is research that I know of that you could actually use this combination of how different wavelengths are absorbed to figure out what is burning in your building.

00:41:08.974 --> 00:41:15.293
You could use this to remote sense what is the chemical that is actually being burned in your building.

00:41:15.293 --> 00:41:16.746
Pretty fascinating, isn't it?

00:41:16.746 --> 00:41:25.630
Just to shine the light through a smoke and you can figure out where did the smoke come from, even though for our lay eyes, every smoke looks the same it's black and annoying.

00:41:25.951 --> 00:41:29.869
Now, finally, I promised you some explanations for engineering.

00:41:29.869 --> 00:41:32.940
So all we've talked about so far is pretty complicated.

00:41:32.940 --> 00:41:36.028
And no, we're not combustion scientists.

00:41:36.028 --> 00:41:39.980
We do not go that deep into suit modeling in fires, in flames.

00:41:39.980 --> 00:41:47.231
In fact, that's a huge part of combustion science and there are hundreds of people that are working on that worldwide, perhaps even thousands.

00:41:47.231 --> 00:41:53.920
As I said in the intro, in fire science we don't put that much love into soot and we don't go that deep into that.

00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:59.869
Now we need to have something in our everyday engineering and that something is a soothill factor.

00:41:59.869 --> 00:42:13.952
You can, okay, if you go into combustion modeling, if you apply some finite rate chemistry at the dissipation model, at the dissipation concept, you can account for sooth creation.

00:42:13.952 --> 00:42:20.452
We use Brooks-Moss model to account for creation of sooth in turbulent flames.

00:42:20.452 --> 00:42:25.831
That's pretty reliable and that's something that we would use.

00:42:26.380 --> 00:42:32.088
But in most of the engineering you would rely on very simple assumptions and you would just put a soothill value.

00:42:32.088 --> 00:42:37.952
Soothill basically represents how much of your fuel turns into soot in your fire.

00:42:37.952 --> 00:42:39.920
A very simple measure.

00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:46.385
And now, as I mentioned in the intro, to find the soot yield value for complex fuels is almost impossible.

00:42:46.385 --> 00:42:52.344
There's no sources that will tell you how much soot is produced from burning a car.

00:42:52.344 --> 00:42:53.949
It's simply too complicated.

00:42:53.949 --> 00:43:02.182
You cannot shrink a car, put it in the tube furnace and measure the specific extinction coefficient and the rate of production of soot in that fire.

00:43:02.182 --> 00:43:05.690
It's way, way, way too complicated, so we have to assume something.

00:43:06.192 --> 00:43:11.751
Now a lot of people would assume something crazy like a value for polyurethane foam, a very high number.

00:43:11.751 --> 00:43:13.684
That's probably quite safe.

00:43:13.684 --> 00:43:19.485
A lot of people would assume something very bad like a value for heptane 0.035.

00:43:19.485 --> 00:43:27.974
That is a very low value of your soot yield and you're going to start seeing a much less soot production that perhaps you would in a fire.

00:43:27.974 --> 00:43:37.347
We were very concerned about that with my friend Gabriel Vigne, but because we're not combustion scientists, we're not material scientists, we looked at that problem from the opposite side.

00:43:37.347 --> 00:43:40.545
So how much does that influence our engineering?

00:43:41.068 --> 00:44:05.067
And because of the exponential nature of the visibility in smoke, because how Lambert-Beer correlation works, the more soot you put into your model, there's a diminishing effect of putting more soot into your model, like, you eventually lose all your visibility and there's no more visibility to be lost, so you're not losing anything.

00:44:05.067 --> 00:44:14.942
We've actually found that the more soot yield you put at the scale of a compartment fire, the sooner you reach your visibility threshold.

00:44:14.942 --> 00:44:22.519
But at some point you stop seeing tremendous changes in your tenability criteria.

00:44:22.519 --> 00:44:30.342
And we found that points to be somewhere around 0.1 sooth yields, so 0.1 gram per gram At this level.

00:44:30.342 --> 00:44:45.728
If we put that much soot into our models, if we put more soot than that, you would not see a significant diminish of your evacuation time available evacuation time because it would be already lost because of how much soot we've put in the first place.

00:44:45.728 --> 00:44:55.181
However, if you put much less soot, if you use, let's say, 0.03 value, then you would extend your available safe evacuation time tremendously.

00:44:55.742 --> 00:45:00.130
Now we've also thought that 0.1 value.

00:45:00.130 --> 00:45:03.215
That place is somewhere in the middle of the range.

00:45:03.215 --> 00:45:10.666
So if you start with zero for perfect combustion, the suitiest fuels like toluene would give you like 0.18.

00:45:10.666 --> 00:45:14.139
This 0.1 value lies somewhere in the middle.

00:45:14.139 --> 00:45:19.092
We thought it's a nice simple value that proven to be quite robust.

00:45:19.092 --> 00:45:24.507
You're not doing a huge error by incorporating that value in your everyday engineering.

00:45:24.507 --> 00:45:33.724
So in reality, if your fuel had lower soot yield than what you've chosen, your results are quite conservative.

00:45:33.724 --> 00:45:35.670
For that case Perhaps it's an error.

00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:40.987
I also hate when people call errors conservative assumptions.

00:45:40.987 --> 00:45:42.800
At some point they just are errors.

00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:44.746
But I think you don't make that big error.

00:45:44.746 --> 00:45:46.349
I don't think you will.

00:45:46.349 --> 00:45:54.371
In most of the cases your combustibles in your compartments would yield something very close to 0.1.

00:45:54.371 --> 00:45:55.414
I really believe that.

00:45:55.414 --> 00:46:08.452
And if in reality your fuels are much moreotier than what you've assumed so let's imagine you've assumed 0.1, but in reality they're 0.13, then the error you've made is pretty small.

00:46:08.452 --> 00:46:10.849
It's a few percent in the tenability rate.

00:46:10.849 --> 00:46:18.829
So if you assign any margin of safety to your calculations, you've covered that and, worst case, you're conservative.

00:46:18.829 --> 00:46:20.023
You're not making a huge error.

00:46:20.023 --> 00:46:28.547
However, if you assumed your suit yield of 0.03, and then your fuels turned out to be 0.13, boy, the difference will be tremendous.

00:46:28.547 --> 00:46:37.248
It's a massive, massive error, massive underestimation of smog production in your compartment, and this is going to have consequences for engineering.

00:46:37.248 --> 00:46:40.789
So this is what we've chosen, this is what we've proposed.

00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:49.405
There is a fire safety journal paper that I will link in the show notes, in which we've described our thought process and how we have achieved those numbers.

00:46:49.405 --> 00:46:52.391
It's not yet the final answer that's marked.

00:46:52.391 --> 00:46:56.985
There is much more to discover related to suits and fires.

00:46:56.985 --> 00:47:16.427
This is a part of the grant visibility prediction framework that I'm developing with Bergeshire University, wuppertal, led by Professor Lucas Arnold, my co-supervisor of this grant, and Lucas with his postdoc, christian Berger.

00:47:16.427 --> 00:47:19.753
They're doing some great, great work out there.

00:47:19.753 --> 00:47:24.679
They are using MIE model instead of Lambert SPUR to figure out smoke properties.

00:47:24.679 --> 00:47:36.208
They see really good results with that and they've also identified some errors that are related to how we calculate visibility compared with real-world measurements.

00:47:36.208 --> 00:47:50.780
Those actually quite well match what we've observed with Gabriela in 2017, a massive discrepancy between the value of visibility measured in the laboratory and something that we get in our numerical modeling based on Jin's model.

00:47:50.780 --> 00:47:55.112
I think we've talked about that a bit with Lucas 100 episodes ago.

00:47:55.112 --> 00:48:11.273
But yeah, with the new findings, perhaps we're going to record a new episode together in some time in the future treating about the uncertainties in measuring visibility in smoke and the errors that you introduce with the common models.

00:48:11.273 --> 00:48:16.652
Perhaps, when we're one step forward in the project, we'll be ready to share that with you.

00:48:17.141 --> 00:48:25.021
Anyway, this is one hour of rambling on soot problem and I think that's enough for you, my kind listener.

00:48:25.021 --> 00:48:27.005
That's enough soot for you.

00:48:27.005 --> 00:48:33.065
At one end, we're very primitive in the way how we treat soot in fire science.

00:48:33.065 --> 00:48:35.831
On the other hand, it's fundamental to us.

00:48:35.831 --> 00:48:37.554
It's so, so important.

00:48:37.554 --> 00:48:41.929
It's smoke that we deal with in the fire safety engineering problems a lot.

00:48:41.929 --> 00:48:46.748
Visibility is the first sustainability criterion to pass its critical value.

00:48:46.748 --> 00:49:00.608
It's something that defines the design of our building, so I guess it's nice to understand it how soot is created, what does it do, what it consists of and what's the physics of how it interacts with light.

00:49:00.608 --> 00:49:03.393
I hope this was a fun episode for you.

00:49:03.393 --> 00:49:06.889
There will be more links in the show notes.

00:49:06.889 --> 00:49:19.106
So if you want to check the hostess video, if you want to check our papers on visibility in smoke, our paper on multi-wavelength measurements of smoke obscuration, they're linked in the show notes.

00:49:19.487 --> 00:49:21.911
Be my guest and do some more reading.

00:49:21.911 --> 00:49:25.027
I recommend Bart Mercy's and Tarek Beji's book.

00:49:25.027 --> 00:49:33.931
It's generally very good for any fire scientist to get familiar with that book, even though some parts of it are very high level and very challenging to read.

00:49:33.931 --> 00:49:35.081
But it's quite comprehensive.

00:49:35.081 --> 00:49:35.463
I like it.

00:49:35.463 --> 00:49:44.052
So, yeah, there are resources, you're armed with knowledge and now go out there and do some really good fire engineering.

00:49:44.052 --> 00:49:49.132
And thank you for your willingness to learn and your willingness to spend time with me.

00:49:49.132 --> 00:49:54.271
It was a pleasure to have another episode of Fire Fundamentals in the podcast.

00:49:54.271 --> 00:49:57.039
Next week we're back into interviews.

00:49:57.039 --> 00:50:02.541
We're going to talk about engineering, or maybe we're going to talk about AI, I don't know yet We'll see.

00:50:02.541 --> 00:50:09.827
I'm sure it's gonna be a fun episode for you in the next week, so make sure to be here with me next Wednesday.

00:50:09.827 --> 00:50:15.380
Oh, and I'm releasing Uncovered Witness season two on Monday, so you perhaps want to check that as well.

00:50:15.380 --> 00:50:16.760
Thanks for being here with me.

00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:38.003
Cheers, bye, cheers, bye.