165 - Best Practice vs. Appropriate Practice with Arnold Dix

Transcript

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Hello everybody, welcome to the Fire Science Show.

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I know for the last weeks I have challenged you with some hardcore fire science content suits, visibilities, ais, some really tough topics and I still believe they're important and impactful.

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But this week I have something that hopefully is simply fun for you.

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Being fun doesn't mean it's not impactful.

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I think it's as important as all the previous subjects we've touched in the Fire Science Show.

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So I'll give you some context.

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I have a friend who's been here multiple times, professor Arnold Dix, and Arnold has literally sent me an email saying how about we do best practice versus appropriate practice?

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And when Arnold sends you an email like that, you know there is much, much more to dig about the subject.

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And then I've started contemplating what does the best practice in engineering mean?

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What does appropriate practice in engineering mean?

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A few days later, I had an entire page of notes and thoughts around the topic, and then I've joined Arnold online to record the episode.

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It was a really interesting discussion, one of the kinds that does not tell you the final answer, because there is no final answer.

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There is no unbiased definition of what the best practice is, there's no universal best at all, but I think we've reached some really, really interesting places in that discussion and I would welcome you to be a part of this discussion.

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I would welcome you to listen to what we had to say and present your stance on what's the best practice and what would be an appropriate practice.

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I promise you it's really interesting and much better than it may sound from a definition space.

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And, of course, you get Professor Arnold Dix, who, from my perspective, is perhaps the most interesting human being on the planet right now.

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So I hope you won't miss the chance to listen to this.

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And, of course, one more element of context Arnold is president of International Tunneling Association, so it's understandable that a lot of the discussion is carried about the subject of tunneling and underground infrastructure, which is also keen to the world of buildings, and I also think it would translate to the world of wildfire engineering or any other aspects where we have to bring fire safety to a specific case or task or specific group of people or solution.

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So, without further ado, let's spin the intro and join us in the discussion about what the industry believes is the best practice and what actually is an appropriate practice.

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Welcome to the Firesize Show.

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Hello everybody, I am here, joined today again by Professor Arnold Dix.

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Hello, arnold, hey, greetings.

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Great to be here, good to see you back in the podcast and wow, you've become quite a persona nowadays, mr President, oh to be here.

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Good to see you back in the podcast and wow, you've become quite a persona nowadays, mr President.

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Oh, thank you.

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Hey, your podcast doing pretty well as well.

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Maybe we're a good team.

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I guess it's a match.

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Let's go together.

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Arnold, you've dropped in a super interesting topic on me and I immediately picked it up because I love it.

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It's, let's say, a lightweight discussion but profoundly important for the community and for engineering itself.

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I think it's great sometimes to stop and reflect on what we are doing.

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You've asked me like what's the best practice and what's an appropriate practice.

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I would love to pull that further.

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And first let me ask what does best practice mean to you?

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So I'm an old-fashioned kind of guy and for me, best practice should be what's best for the people who are going to be enjoying and taking the benefit of whatever it is we happen to be building out there.

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So that's what I think it should be out there.

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So that's what I think it should be.

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But I think it's been twisted and perverted into what is the most insanely high-tech, latest state of the art, most onerous, most burdensome.

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If we could have anything we want, what would we have?

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And that's what people are interpreting as best practice, and I think that is a total perversion of the concept and that's why I said to you provocatively I'd like to talk about best practice versus appropriate practice and appropriate practice.

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What would that be?

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Cost-effectiveness risk.

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It would be what's right for around here and here, could be anywhere.

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So any country, any project, anywhere, what's right in all the circumstances for that?

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And so, for example, at the moment there's a big discussion about and I know you've had it on your podcast series critical velocity.

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So let's just go straight to critical velocity.

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So some people would want to argue that, in order to get the ventilation system correct, we're going to do a very extraordinary analysis of all the circumstances of the tunnel, we're going to do all the modeling and we're going to get a ventilation system with a control system that gets our critical velocity within point.

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Whatever it is Doing that, there's a whole lot of burdens.

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It's going to bring on a project which may or may not be appropriate in a particular location.

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There's a consulting burden to do that.

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There's a control system burden.

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There's a hardware burden.

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There's a what energy supply like how much power do we have burden.

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So I'm saying it's got to be.

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We'd say, either horses for courses, or cut the cloth to the size, or however you want to put it, what do we need around here to do the job?

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So am I making sense or am I just gone off?

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You know?

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you brought.

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Like we're tunnel enjoyers and you know, tunnel ventilation is something close to my heart and I'm trying to educate people in here a lot about the concepts of ventilation and how we've twisted it in a way, because critical velocity is your component and you're supposed to achieve it right, but you're supposed to achieve it in the absolutely worst wind conditions, in the absolutely worst location of a fire in your tunnel and, by the way, the tunnel was filled with absolute maximum number of people who can pass through it at the day, and the day is the worst, and the fire brigade is after a Polish wedding and half of them are unavailable.

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And suddenly you are designing for a combination of factors, which means that the last time such an event happened was when the dinosaurs were roaming the world and perhaps they were building tunnels, and the next one will be in 100 million years.

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And what really happens on your building, on your building side, is then when you have this massive system, you plug it in, you suddenly have 10 meters per second in your tunnel and whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait.

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Didn't we design it for three?

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Yes, you did, yeah, but you have added seven meters on top of that for a case that perhaps will never happen and even if perhaps it's acceptable For me it's ridiculous.

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Yeah, and just say, take that example where you've actually sized your ventilation to the 10, say it achieves your 10 meters a second, and you go to your power station or your power provider.

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The way that's normally provided is they have to make available to you the power for your ventilation system to do that in an emergency.

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So not only isn't it appropriate for your tunnel, but you've just denied your community access to a whole lot of the capacity of your power station.

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And it's actually because this infrastructure is so big.

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The roll on the consequential effects for this.

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Pessimism on pessimism on pessimism, or best practice, best practice, best practice, best practice, which isn't best practice, it's just like crazy practice.

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It doesn't achieve the mission.

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And the mission is infrastructure fit for and appropriate for that community, because you've just denied that community a whole lot of efficiency in their power generation.

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So for me, this is where we, as engineers, we have to take a little step backward and go.

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Let's stop being so myopic, so focused, so looking down a magnifying glass, trying to impress our girlfriends or boyfriends or bosses and everything about how clever we are, about putting A plus B plus C plus D and being so onerous, and instead go.

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How could this fit properly around here?

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What would be an appropriate fit?

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What's an acceptable level of residual risk here, given this particular context?

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And that doesn't have to be the biggest and best of everything.

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Yeah, I had this episode with Lars from Swedish road administration here and he I had this episode with Lars from Swedish road administration here and he has spearheaded the idea to put sprinklers into Swedish tunnels, but this very specific way how they put them, because they don't have pump stations, they just plug it to the, let's say, main pipe for Stockholm, and I thought this is brilliant, you know, because the pipe will always have water and it will always have pressure.

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We can discuss whether it's sufficient pressure for extinction or not, but I would say any water is better than no water.

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So, again here, your best practice could be two redundant pumps and whatever PSI of pressure and whatever amount of water per nozzle at a specific length of the tunnel.

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Cool, okay, that's true, that's the best practice, but you cannot argue that putting a lot of water in a tunnel will not do a job.

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It will do some job.

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But the second part is why do we need the redundancy in pumps so you always have water In here?

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If the guy loses his water, that means Stockholm has a lot more problems than a fire in the tunnel.

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This is brilliant because he just matched, he just found a proper solution.

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I love him.

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Tell him I'm on my way to Stockholm.

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I want to marry him.

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And look, I've actually just because you mentioned it, I've done something similar here with my, because I live on a farm in a fire prone area and I had a choice of having a completely separate reticulated fire suppression system for protecting my home, or just my normal hose, just big, longer versions.

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And I opted for the longer hoses, not because the separate system on paper wouldn't be better performance, but because using my normal system as the fire system means it's more likely to work, because I use it all the time.

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I'm using it to water my plants.

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I'm using it all the time.

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So the Stockholm thing you're right.

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If there's a problem with the system, all the mums and dads and bald-headed babies of Stockholm will say we've got no water, whereas if the tunnel had a problem with the separate system, maybe no one would notice, maybe the repairs will be delayed.

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The next budget.

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And again, the costs right the pumps, the redundancy, the power supply, the consultancy, the control, the hardware, everything you mentioned.

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So a beautiful example and I truly admire it.

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I mean, I know it triggers some people because that's not the way we do sprinklers.

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And even Lars, he faced that Like oh, it's not going to be approved by authorities, and he's like I'm the authority, I'm the authority, let's burn this in rice, let's check it out.

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If it works, it works.

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We put it in tunnel.

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Yeah, brilliant.

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But okay, we know that we should do good and and I guess we could now end the podcast everyone's around inspired.

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Let's do best we can, let's find appropriate solutions.

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But you very well know that it's not possible everywhere in the world because there are boundaries that systematic boundaries that prevent you from doing your appropriate practice.

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Want to start on those yeah.

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Well, do you want to do the real ones or do you want to do the hidden ones, which are even more real?

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Because the hidden ones which are even more real are the how much money can someone make out of selling this hit?

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And we don't.

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That's one of the ones we don't talk about as much.

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But there's a whole industry promoting best practice, because if you can get your gadget or your widget into the table of best practice and you can get your contracts to specify compliance with the standard, that just happens to have your widget in the table.

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Thank you very much.

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So best practice, it's a really, really subtle form of tertiary, educated Tupperware marketing.

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Now, that doesn't mean it's wrong to follow tables, but as engineers, we need to be alert for the influence of vendors promoting products and getting those products into the tables in the standards as a way of using the concept of best practice just to guarantee sales.

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We're engineers.

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I'll give you an example of a technology that I love.

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So, for example, public address systems.

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So public address systems, so public address systems for emergency announcements.

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How often do we actually see intelligibility mentioned?

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Rarely, actually.

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What we do see is that there's a public address system.

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We might even see some description of how many DB or whatever they have to be, or maybe even some description of how the architecture is set up, how they're accessed dB or whatever they have to be, or maybe even some description of how the architecture is set up, how they're accessed, whether or not they're digital, pre-recorded messages, whether or not they're with a live person.

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And we all sit around and argue amongst ourselves as to whether a canned message is better than a live message and everything.

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But really isn't the more important question whether A do we want to communicate using one and B?

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The word communicate means if we're going to have one, we should be able to understand it, and so the intelligibility should be the issue, and yet somehow we've missed that generally in the best practice for the whole world intelligibility, and I don't know if you've experienced it but in opening by many months because of the intelligibility of the public address system.

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So it actually it was finished.

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It was in the process of commissioning and the firefighters said no, the public address system, you cannot understand what it says, you have to redo it.

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And it delayed it by months.

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It was a very strong case.

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But now, as I think why, I think Poland is because it's a country that was catching up.

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It had a connection to the newest technology and perhaps the market forces were a little different.

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Perhaps the vendors who had better and more useful tools had a market advantage on the old boys who were selling everything for every project for decades.

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So perhaps in one way that we I wouldn't say we control it or we made sure, whoever we are as a country, but we got the good stuff in here and it worked.

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And the same with pressurization systems, the same with a lot of smoke control technologies, the same with a lot of water mist technologies.

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But I would say it's because one the fire department is an extremely strong stakeholder in the discussion.

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They can literally not open the Warsaw main airport because they don't like the public address system.

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That's how powerful they are.

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Can you imagine the political force behind that?

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And they don't give a crap, they just say it's not safe, we're not going to allow it and everyone respects it.

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And here the firefighters would to some extent voice the society, voice the user, voice the safety.

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They're not monetary incentivized, they don't have anything from not opening the building.

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They act from a higher level.

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But also, if I may continue on this example, it also creates other issues Because, for example, when we were doing a tunnel in Warsaw, it created charges with us because they only understood the best practice in smoke control.

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You know the one tunneling handbooks, ingots, cobbles and stuff like that.

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That's the level of comprehension they had of smoke control systems.

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But those books don't tell you how to design a very specific 20-meter-wide transversely ventilated tunnel in a windy passage in Warsaw.

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And we've designed a very robust system which basically meant that with one single configuration of the system.

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The system would act perfectly in 95% of wind conditions in Warsaw, one setting and in 5%.

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It had some challenges but we made sure that we're still on the safe side.

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And they did not accept the design because on the day of commissioning we had the 5% wins and they said, oh, the smoke has passed through the smoke control zone and it's not acceptable anymore, even though it reached a point where no one would be in the tunnel and they had us to redo the design because it did not align with the best practice.

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They were acting on behalf of the society and said no, this is not safe, we have to redo it.

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And we've implemented 700 scenarios for every possible measured wind in Warsaw.

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We have a different scenario of operating jet fans in the tunnel to cancel wind.

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And tell me which is more robust, one with one scenario or one with 700?

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Because I see 700 scenarios that can break.

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So I can go on and on and on, and I know you can do as well.

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You're the guest, so I'll give you back the mic, but it's complicated, you know it's complicated.

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But going back to what you said, I agree that best practice became kind of a marketing tool or market opening tool game, kind of a marketing tool or market opening tool.

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Yeah, I like your observation that maybe one of the advantages you had in Poland was that it was a new market and, by implication, the networks and old boy clubs and all the other things that get entrenched hadn't had a chance to get entrenched.

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So therefore there was an opportunity for a more open and informed discussion about the importance of intelligibility.

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I like that idea and that idea would be consistent with what we saw in Australia originally when our first big urban tunnels came and we embraced things like fire suppression, so like the deluge systems, and that was actively resisted by the old boys club older, I'll call it the old established countries, um, who were saying that's just ridiculous.

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It's going to de-stratify smoke and cause explosions and steam burns and all that sort of stuff and you lose visibility on top of it.

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Oh, and you lose visibility, yeah, and then I was around at that time and we're saying, yeah, but wouldn't it be kind of handy if we didn't get the big fires like that?

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We actually kind of kept them little Like.

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Wouldn't that kind of be an advantage?

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And surely it's not a surprise that if you have a great big fire and then you dump a whole lot of water on it, you get steam and de-stratification, but hello, wouldn't we be trying to debate this system quickly, isn't that the point?

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So we were able to have that discussion because the old boys club hadn't actually formed yet and the regulator and the fire brigade were happy to have that sort of discussion.

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And I recall, when Mont Blanc happened, a delegation from Australia going across to France and one of our God bless, their little cotton socks firemen getting up saying well, you know, if Modblog had happened in Australia it wouldn't have happened because we've got fire suppression systems.

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And then, of course, everyone wanted to fight each other to the death and everything.

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But the point, I think the point you're making is a good one.

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Surely, best practice means and best practice isn't just using everything.

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It has to be having an open mind, having a palette available to the latest thinking and engineering and being receptive to innovation and fit for the purpose around here, wherever here might be.

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How do you think best practices travel across the world?

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Because it's also interesting, you know.

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Let's go again case of poland and australia.

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So the best practice was created somewhere and then it took its luggage and flew to poland to become the best practice in here.

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How do you see countries implement best practice?

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You're involved with many countries on the rise yeah, yeah.

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So yeah, look, great, great question.

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I think it's a form of engineering, colonialism, right?

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Okay, instead of little boats going off and conquering, you have standards and documents going off and conquering foreign lands.

00:21:46.972 --> 00:22:02.191
And I think in the foreign lands, wherever they might be, there's always an appetite to find out what should we do here, and there's always an appetite to do the best, like we're going to do best here, which is that's a lovely thing too.

00:22:02.191 --> 00:22:32.065
But often the budgets are restricted and often the intellectual resources are restricted, and often there's a political dimension, particularly in the early stages when a country is adopting underground infrastructure, and so there's a political need to get a project on the books and delivered, and politicians often like to you know, I don't want to name the countries, but we're going to have one of those ones like they've got over there here, sort of thing and yet I often beg.

00:22:32.065 --> 00:22:34.680
I'll give you an example, let's not muck around.

00:22:35.040 --> 00:22:43.882
I was looking at a tunnel through the Andes between Argentina and Chile and I was at a meeting somewhere up in the Andes, which was literally cool.

00:22:43.882 --> 00:22:45.949
If you've ever been to the Andes, it's very nice.

00:22:45.949 --> 00:22:46.590
Thank you very much.

00:22:46.590 --> 00:23:14.321
And I remember literally begging the decision makers not to commit to a Western European solution for the trans-Andes Tunnel straight up and suggesting to them look, just build one tube, just one, and get your local people there as well, and maybe don't do the full lighting and maybe don't do the full vent, but maybe have it scaled so you can do it later.

00:23:14.321 --> 00:23:17.070
But just see what it's like up there.

00:23:17.070 --> 00:23:18.486
It's a high altitude tunnel.

00:23:18.486 --> 00:23:20.627
We're not really sure what the winds are going to do.

00:23:20.627 --> 00:23:32.705
We're really not sure what the emissions are going to be from these internal combustion engines because we're at such high altitudes we don't really know what the mix of the engine types is going to be on the vehicles.

00:23:32.705 --> 00:23:47.203
Why don't we kind of just turn the volume down a little and let's do Argentina-Chile practice instead of Western European practice and then build from there as we learn how to do this?

00:23:47.904 --> 00:23:50.029
And I thought that was a really cool.

00:23:50.029 --> 00:23:52.603
I thought that was a very responsible idea.

00:23:52.603 --> 00:23:55.848
It meant that there was less burden on the economies.

00:23:55.848 --> 00:24:08.027
It paved the way for each of the countries to develop their own expertise, their own industry, their own universities and technical institutes to support that sort of thing.

00:24:08.027 --> 00:24:10.893
But it didn't happen and the project didn't.

00:24:10.893 --> 00:24:15.094
And one of the reasons it didn't happen was because best practice shock horror is really, really expensive and the countries couldn't afford it.

00:24:15.094 --> 00:24:20.165
So the it didn't happen was because best practice shock horror is really, really expensive and the countries couldn't afford it, so the project didn't happen.

00:24:20.165 --> 00:24:29.270
So that can't be best practice, because it means the countries of Argentina and Chile have been denied a link that they so desperately need through the Andes.

00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:40.826
But you can agree that building intellectual capacity within a country to develop such a sophisticated system as a tunnel Tunnels are pretty complicated.

00:24:40.826 --> 00:24:44.951
You cannot just wake up and say, okay, we're going to learn how to build tunnels today.

00:24:44.951 --> 00:24:52.366
It takes time and practice and there are lessons to be learned and there are non-intuitive things that happens in a tunnel.

00:24:52.366 --> 00:24:54.299
It's pretty complicated.

00:24:54.299 --> 00:25:03.010
So you need the starting point somewhere and when you have a starting point, it's difficult to know how far from the starting point you can move.

00:25:03.010 --> 00:25:21.511
And even though imagine, you have a group of brilliant engineers who say, okay, we're going to deliver that, we're going to learn, we're going to deliver that, like Professor Bjorn Karlsson said, when he needed to design something in Iceland, he just sent a PhD student to Lund to do a doctorate on that.

00:25:21.511 --> 00:25:24.280
The person came back and they had a specialist in the country.

00:25:24.280 --> 00:25:28.388
Brilliant way to reach a specialist in your country.

00:25:28.388 --> 00:25:33.787
I'm not sure how many PhD positions are open in Lund, but you can take this approach.

00:25:34.167 --> 00:25:37.013
Anyway, you can train a group of people, but then you need more people.

00:25:37.013 --> 00:25:50.989
You need verificators, you need third-party auditors in the building, you will have contractors that will battle for the project and may have their own design teams who would like to optimize or change the design.

00:25:50.989 --> 00:25:53.828
So training a small group of people is not enough.

00:25:53.828 --> 00:26:10.574
You have to literally build the competency of an entire nation and in Poland we are 30-something tunnels in and I believe it just happened we now have multiple stakeholders who are probably capable of delivering tunnel projects.

00:26:10.574 --> 00:26:26.771
So you have a competent designer, competent verificator, competent third party, competent subcontractors, because the experience is here after a decade of building tunnels, which, with the first ones being like Italians come and tell us how to do it, austrians come and tell us how to do it.

00:26:26.771 --> 00:26:30.529
It's not something you can build from one day, so you need a starting point.

00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:38.594
Yeah Well, all I'm suggesting is that starting point doesn't have to be the best tunnel as your starting point.

00:26:38.594 --> 00:26:49.547
It doesn't have to be the state-of-the-art tunnel, and I think that timeline you just used about a decade I think that's a reasonable timeline, certainly not less than a decade.

00:26:49.547 --> 00:26:51.559
Look at what's happened in China.

00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:57.147
I mean China, over 20 years, has gone from really not much sort of.

00:26:57.147 --> 00:27:05.007
I mean, they had capacity to build tunnels, but it wasn't something to write home about, Like they were doing it, but it wasn't like amazing.

00:27:05.007 --> 00:27:16.755
Now, 2024, oh my God, they are just the technological position of the organizations within China and their delivery capability is just amazing.

00:27:16.755 --> 00:27:19.970
So Malaysia, Malaysia, are like that.

00:27:19.970 --> 00:27:29.147
Now Malaysia have got this incredible domestic capacity to build In Asia, Poland, as you've just described it, and then you've got the early superpowers.

00:27:29.259 --> 00:27:35.099
I mean the early superpowers would be the Austrians, the Germans, the Italians, the Swiss and the Scandinavians.

00:27:35.099 --> 00:27:37.608
I think they're really they were the superpowers.

00:27:37.608 --> 00:27:42.490
And I think Japan came along and it really got up to speed in the 80s.

00:27:42.490 --> 00:27:49.269
I think China's, as I say, it's just amazing right now, Like it's absolutely peaking at the moment.

00:27:49.269 --> 00:27:52.627
There's cycles to this, but it takes time.

00:27:52.627 --> 00:27:55.064
But there's other countries like Papua New Guinea.

00:27:55.064 --> 00:28:01.280
I'm over in Papua New Guinea at the moment trying to help them with their tunneling society, so that's from zero, basically.

00:28:02.682 --> 00:28:12.685
And what about all boys clubs in old countries UK, switzerland, germany, austria guys who've been building tunnels for more than a century?

00:28:12.685 --> 00:28:16.551
Is their best practice, a proper practice, for their place too?

00:28:16.551 --> 00:28:26.071
I wonder at what point you have to revise and perhaps cut some fat you built up over the years.

00:28:26.071 --> 00:28:32.551
Make it leaner, the requirements, because the best practice it seems like entropy can just grow.

00:28:33.021 --> 00:28:35.050
Yeah, no, I think you're right.

00:28:35.050 --> 00:28:43.932
I've got to say the ones that impressed me the most in terms of domestic maturity of a capacity and a commercial market.

00:28:43.932 --> 00:28:46.781
And we're talking best practice.

00:28:46.781 --> 00:28:48.465
Appropriate practice would be the Swiss.

00:28:48.465 --> 00:29:04.220
They've got such a mature way of doing business and regulation and contracting and building and operating it's almost like a perfect little ecosystem there to actually deliver this underground infrastructure in a really good way.

00:29:04.220 --> 00:29:09.150
So their appropriate practice and best practice converge.

00:29:09.991 --> 00:29:12.804
But interestingly, the Swiss too.

00:29:12.804 --> 00:29:14.227
They're not quite what you think.

00:29:14.227 --> 00:29:43.762
When you go on a project in Switzerland you discover, for example, during construction, that they have quite an appetite for construction risk and if you compare it with, say, in the United Kingdom, which is absolutely risk adverse, paralyzed by risk assessments and job statements of how to do things, so that technique in the United Kingdom, if you send it across to Switzerland, would cause all the chocolate to melt and all the cows to go backwards up the hills.

00:29:43.762 --> 00:29:44.806
I mean, it would be terrible.

00:29:44.806 --> 00:30:06.428
But what they do in Switzerland is fit for purpose, it is best and appropriate practice in Switzerland and I think it's a very interesting model of excellence in underground and everything about the underground, from the consulting, the design, the construction, the operation, the integration, even the digital twins and the digital modeling of the whole country.

00:30:06.567 --> 00:30:25.169
Just amazing Compared with Papua New Guinea, which has got nothing and pretty much starting from zero and just with an incredible need and a whole group of engineers and a big mining sector and cities that flood, and transport systems that don't work and power generation that's not there and water systems that aren't there and sewage that's not there.

00:30:25.169 --> 00:30:29.907
She's a wide, she's a big world out there, so we're not best practice.

00:30:29.907 --> 00:30:32.339
Swiss style will not work in Papua New Guinea.

00:30:32.942 --> 00:30:36.393
I wonder another thing you've mentioned appropriate is was appropriate in here.

00:30:36.393 --> 00:30:36.433
I would.

00:30:36.433 --> 00:30:37.250
Another thing you've mentioned appropriate is is what's appropriate in here?

00:30:37.250 --> 00:30:46.079
I would add here and here, now and tomorrow, because it's very interesting If I'm talking with the president of international tunneling association.

00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:50.460
So there's a reason why we're entering underground every second sentence.

00:30:50.460 --> 00:30:55.470
But look, the average age of railway tunnel in Germany is above a hundred years.

00:30:55.470 --> 00:31:02.509
Yeah, those constructions will live centuries and I don't think we can be ignorant of that.

00:31:02.509 --> 00:31:05.009
I think we need to recognize that.

00:31:05.009 --> 00:31:20.268
It's not that I believe we need to solve future problems that don't exist yet, but I believe we should be careful of providing space to others in the future, like we would like to have space from the ones who designed the tunnels 100 years ago.

00:31:20.268 --> 00:31:32.448
Refurbishment projects are hell, and they're mostly hell because there was not enough space or there's some limiting boundaries that don't allow you to do something very cheaply.

00:31:32.448 --> 00:31:38.107
How best practice is treating future and how appropriate practice should include future.

00:31:38.579 --> 00:31:40.067
Yeah, I think it's the biggest.

00:31:40.067 --> 00:32:11.005
It's not even an elephant in the room, it's just the elephant is the refurbishment of underground spaces and, unlike a building where you can just push it over and build another one, these underground spaces the purpose might change, the space remains, or a variational space remains, and even little things, like if you're using a tunnel boring machine and you want to put a deck in for a road or a rail, there's often a temptation just to backfill it and use the backfill as the base.

00:32:11.539 --> 00:32:14.830
And wherever I'm involved, I'm always saying are you insane?

00:32:14.830 --> 00:32:20.503
Wherever I'm involved, I'm always saying are you insane?

00:32:20.503 --> 00:32:25.813
We've just spent all of these resources to dig a hole through a mountain or wherever, and that space is incredibly valuable.

00:32:25.813 --> 00:32:29.005
We spent a lot of resources to make that space.

00:32:29.005 --> 00:32:32.553
We should keep that space even if we don't know what it's for.

00:32:32.553 --> 00:32:44.383
The preference should be to keep that space because in the future there may be a need and we've seen that recently with things like fiber optic cables, other data transmission.

00:32:44.824 --> 00:32:52.285
There's been recent technological developments, even little robots you know the little robot sort of scoot along.

00:32:52.285 --> 00:32:57.161
There's all sorts of things that you can do with a space that you can't, with a space that you can't imagine.

00:32:57.161 --> 00:33:00.288
Actually, we can't imagine right now, but we need the space.

00:33:00.288 --> 00:33:05.731
The one thing we don't want to do is just backfill it as if it's useless because we can't think of how to use it now.

00:33:05.731 --> 00:33:07.643
So that's an example I think of.

00:33:07.643 --> 00:33:12.541
I mean, arguably best practice might be, you just leave, you do backfill it.

00:33:12.541 --> 00:33:25.410
And yet I think appropriate practice would be try and preserve the space for the future, even if you don't quite know what that future might bring, because linear usually linear corridors are really valuable and very rare.

00:33:26.140 --> 00:33:29.287
Especially through mountains or underground right?

00:33:29.287 --> 00:33:40.280
Another thing that comes to my mind is your best practice should refer to something like there is a goal, right.

00:33:40.280 --> 00:33:41.484
Sometimes the goal would be explicitly stated.

00:33:41.484 --> 00:33:45.224
Sometimes the goal would be very ambiguous and you don't even know what it is.

00:33:45.224 --> 00:33:47.723
It's just to have a tunnel, that could be called as well.

00:33:47.723 --> 00:33:49.800
Yeah, that's that as a perfectly fine goal.

00:33:49.800 --> 00:33:54.573
But I wonder like which goals skew the practice?

00:33:54.573 --> 00:34:02.547
You know which goals perhaps shouldn't be used because they lead to this over design or overuse.

00:34:02.547 --> 00:34:15.708
I mean, for me, very specific, targeted goals, like we need to lower the temperature in the tunnel in this one specific design fire when the probability is very low, or like with the vent velocity that've designed.

00:34:15.708 --> 00:34:18.364
It's a goal right, but I think it's a stupid goal.

00:34:18.364 --> 00:34:21.188
I think it doesn't reflect the true need.

00:34:21.188 --> 00:34:28.525
It's a goal in the head of somebody, but it's not a true goal for the goodness of the project, it's not the best for society.

00:34:28.525 --> 00:34:32.304
I wonder how do you see goals and which goals we should pick?

00:34:32.304 --> 00:34:32.887
Which should we?

00:34:32.927 --> 00:34:33.228
avoid.

00:34:33.228 --> 00:34:39.309
I'm old-fashioned so I like to look at what's the functional requirement of the particular asset.

00:34:39.309 --> 00:34:50.719
So usually the functional requirement of the asset is some sort of connection, and then the use of that connection might be whether it's water or sewage, or transport or energy or whatever it is, but it's connections.

00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:52.543
That's basically connections.

00:34:52.543 --> 00:35:03.086
So if you can keep one eye on the connection aspect then, for example, some would say best practice is secondary liners.

00:35:03.086 --> 00:35:05.920
Say we're dealing with a road tunnel or sometimes even a rail tunnel.

00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:10.719
A secondary liner, that's pretty, it's like a veneer, it's something that looks.

00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:17.338
It's a liner that you put in, that you can wash and everyone can go through and say, oh, that looks pretty.

00:35:17.699 --> 00:35:19.563
Well, is that really best practice?

00:35:19.563 --> 00:35:25.677
It might look pretty, but it denies you the opportunity to look at the structure of the tunnel.

00:35:25.677 --> 00:35:26.922
It's not necessary.

00:35:26.922 --> 00:35:31.661
It's got some huge carbon footprint, it requires maintenance, it can fall in.

00:35:31.701 --> 00:35:37.949
There's a whole lot of things about it which, on its face, in many countries would view it as best practice.

00:35:37.949 --> 00:35:41.539
And yet I would strongly argue you don't need it.

00:35:41.539 --> 00:35:54.579
And in fact, in the current context of a resource-stressed world, the climate emergency, just generally, a lack of money for stuff like hospitals and schools and everything like that.

00:35:54.579 --> 00:35:56.083
How about we don't do it?

00:35:56.083 --> 00:36:13.061
We don't need it, even though some people would say that's best practice and in countries where the budgets are even more stressed and where the infrastructure is more needed, morally and ethically, why would you even promote doing something like that?

00:36:13.202 --> 00:36:16.007
You need to get the connections to enable these people.

00:36:16.007 --> 00:36:21.717
You don't have to build a tunnel that they all want to get selfies in because it's the most pretty tunnel.

00:36:21.717 --> 00:36:23.300
We want connections.

00:36:23.300 --> 00:36:26.106
We're trying to help our people and planet.

00:36:26.106 --> 00:36:33.166
We're not a beauty competition, and I think that's something that the Scandinavians are doing pretty well at the moment.

00:36:33.166 --> 00:36:39.027
I've noticed they've done some very creative artistic things with primary structural liners.

00:36:39.027 --> 00:36:53.387
You typically wouldn't think a best practice because it's just concrete or spray-applied concrete or whatever, and yet they do it beautifully, and I think actually in Poland I've seen some pretty wild ones as well in the metro.

00:36:53.387 --> 00:37:03.463
This is where I get back to your best practice doesn't have to be what is done in the richest country or as promoted by a particular vendor.

00:37:03.463 --> 00:37:12.932
What would work around here, what makes sense here and what gives our community the best value in terms of what they want from this underground connection or space?

00:37:13.675 --> 00:37:16.983
And what if you're like here?

00:37:16.983 --> 00:37:28.362
We were talking about how to choose what's the goal, right, but in many places of the world the goals would be just clauses in your code and you cannot really discuss with them or the expectations of the investor.

00:37:28.362 --> 00:37:43.108
In Poland, you would have a specific law that defines what you have to have in tunnels and you would have a specific sub clauses that are defined for per contract every single time, and I usually just find them annoying.

00:37:43.108 --> 00:37:55.485
But I would love to just have a general functional requirements to which I can engineer my tunnel, instead of having said that my escape exit has to be every 250 meters period, right?

00:37:55.485 --> 00:38:00.802
Is there anything we can advise to people working in in those kind of contracts?

00:38:00.802 --> 00:38:03.809
Like we're engineers, we strive to do the best.

00:38:03.809 --> 00:38:07.626
It's like you're not a tunnel vendor.

00:38:07.626 --> 00:38:15.608
You want to create something that will outlive you and people in 100 years will benefit from that, something that can transform society.

00:38:15.608 --> 00:38:21.086
Like, if you're in such a rigid boundaries, how can you strive for that?

00:38:21.086 --> 00:38:22.657
Because I find it's really challenging.

00:38:22.777 --> 00:38:36.103
Well, I think it is challenging and I would be lying if I said I had a magic solution for this and I think the burden lies on us differently depending on what role we're playing.

00:38:36.103 --> 00:38:45.469
If we're sitting on the side of the client who's making specifications, and then I'd love to blow a whistle and sort of, just in case anybody's here, just blow a whistle like, okay, simulated whistle, blow whistle, blow right, there's the whistle.

00:38:45.469 --> 00:38:55.847
Any of you listening to this who act for the clients who are setting specifications for projects, don't do a Google search to work out what you want in your tunnel, right?

00:38:55.847 --> 00:39:06.221
Don't copy paste what someone else has had in their project and fake it to your boss that you've just done two months really difficult work when you haven't.

00:39:06.221 --> 00:39:12.188
You rang up your friend who was doing a job in another country on your private email, sent the schedule.

00:39:12.188 --> 00:39:13.291
You've copied it out.

00:39:13.291 --> 00:39:16.101
You've actually been going to the beach for the last whatever.

00:39:16.101 --> 00:39:17.849
Come on, don't do that.

00:39:17.849 --> 00:39:18.932
That's not cool.

00:39:18.932 --> 00:39:31.458
Actually, be an engineer, because your table of specifications are the burden other people are going to have to carry and if you try and deviate from it then people go oh, why are you trying to deviate from that?

00:39:31.458 --> 00:39:41.228
Oh, maybe they've got some devious reason, maybe there's some money under the table, maybe, whatever it is, when in fact it might be.

00:39:41.976 --> 00:39:48.030
One of my favorite ones is cross-passage separations, particularly in metro, newsflash metros.

00:39:48.030 --> 00:39:59.742
Nothing happens in a modern metro Like we have got our metros, our modern metros, if you actually build one and you've got decent rolling stock and you maintain it properly.

00:39:59.742 --> 00:40:06.447
Okay, there are caveats there that you've got to do it properly, but it's really really, really, really, really reliable.

00:40:06.447 --> 00:40:12.322
And when you look at the data around the world, nothing happens, really nothing happens.

00:40:12.322 --> 00:40:16.277
It's just so good these days as long as you've done it correctly.

00:40:16.818 --> 00:40:30.918
So if you've got one of those sort of metros and you're building it in really horrible ground conditions and you're going to specify cross passage separations, say of depends which standard, but let's just, I'll pick one out of the air.

00:40:30.918 --> 00:40:34.766
I'll say 150 meters, 500, oh, you want 500.

00:40:34.766 --> 00:40:36.088
500 is pretty.

00:40:36.088 --> 00:40:38.155
That's generous you're being.

00:40:38.155 --> 00:40:42.179
You know some of them are down, like in the hundreds of meters, the crosspass.

00:40:42.179 --> 00:41:02.253
I have pulled more bodies out of collapses in building cross passages in metros than anything else, because the process of building those cross passages in altered ground between, say, two tunnel boring machine bores and it's like a spacewalk and the bloody things collapse.

00:41:02.253 --> 00:41:16.496
So probability of killing someone doing that is much higher than the hypothetical probability of an incredibly unlikely event one day, maybe in the future, for using the cross passages in an emergency.

00:41:16.496 --> 00:41:25.402
So in cases like that I'd want greater cross-passage separation, just to minimize the risk during construction that sort of stuff.

00:41:26.155 --> 00:41:29.945
Let's be a bit more grown up about how we balance risk.

00:41:29.945 --> 00:41:33.606
Let's stop being so microscopic.

00:41:33.606 --> 00:41:38.222
Back up a little bit and look at the bigger picture of risk and be engineers doing that.

00:41:38.222 --> 00:41:39.922
I think there's a case for that.

00:41:39.922 --> 00:41:42.914
I'm not suggesting everyone just do whatever they feel like.

00:41:42.914 --> 00:41:45.340
I'm not suggesting a free-for-all, but we're engineers.

00:41:45.340 --> 00:41:46.503
This is what we do.

00:41:46.503 --> 00:41:49.838
This risk stuff is what we're really good at.

00:41:50.119 --> 00:41:50.840
So let's do it.

00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:54.978
I've asked the question because I feel I have some sort of an answer to it.

00:41:54.978 --> 00:41:55.380
Actually.

00:41:55.380 --> 00:41:57.126
Oh, tell me, I'm ready.

00:41:57.126 --> 00:42:13.302
Yeah, what to do in countries where the system is rigid and it's a longer observation, like when the system is very rigid, to bring the discussion about the very obvious things, like what you've just said let's replace one technology with another, because the benefits are obvious.

00:42:13.302 --> 00:42:15.523
You face, oh, it's not possible.

00:42:15.523 --> 00:42:16.096
Why?

00:42:16.096 --> 00:42:19.822
Because we cannot do it, why Because there's no practice that allows that?

00:42:19.822 --> 00:42:20.644
And why is that?

00:42:20.644 --> 00:42:22.179
Because we're not allowed.

00:42:22.179 --> 00:42:30.438
And that's the discussion you will have right, and I feel changing within the system is not possible.

00:42:30.458 --> 00:42:37.324
But I think there are opportunities to change the context of the discussion, to change the entire framework in which we discuss.

00:42:37.324 --> 00:42:46.605
Like, look, you could not talk about many things related to energy efficiency of systems, even though you knew that it's important to have energy efficient systems.

00:42:46.605 --> 00:42:55.007
And then the UN sustainability goals came and we're talking about sustainability and it's obvious that for sustainability, you need a more energy efficient systems.

00:42:55.007 --> 00:43:00.661
The framework has changed, the context has changed, the background has changed and now you're allowed to talk to that.

00:43:00.661 --> 00:43:07.184
Background has changed and now you're allowed to talk to that.

00:43:07.204 --> 00:43:11.074
And I believe that if you want to change a part of the system, a clever way to change it is changing the narrative.

00:43:11.074 --> 00:43:11.856
And I'll tell you.

00:43:11.856 --> 00:43:20.581
It's something that I'm trying to do here to put some things in the tunnels that I would like more and get rid of the things that I know that do not contribute.

00:43:20.581 --> 00:43:24.989
And the narrative that I try to impose is resilience.

00:43:24.989 --> 00:43:25.789
Why?

00:43:25.789 --> 00:43:37.543
Because I believe that if you build a truly resilient system, it includes life safety, it includes efficiency, it includes everything, because you cannot build a resilient system which kills people.

00:43:37.543 --> 00:43:39.186
It's not resilient.

00:43:39.186 --> 00:43:39.927
You know what I mean.

00:43:39.927 --> 00:43:43.217
It's a higher goal that I see.

00:43:43.217 --> 00:44:02.652
And I see those discussions only possible, not within the context of the discussion that has been ongoing, but saying, okay, let's stop this discussion, it's irrelevant now, because today we have sustainability, today we have resiliency, today we have environmental goals, today we're treating this as a socio-technical system.

00:44:02.652 --> 00:44:12.269
Now, and I find only those spaces as opportunity to truly change the tiny fractions which are rigid within my current framework.

00:44:13.275 --> 00:44:23.108
I like your idea because what you're saying is the engineer needs the narrative to show off their tools.

00:44:23.108 --> 00:44:31.244
It needs the leadership, the thought leadership, to encourage the sort of solutions that are necessary.

00:44:31.244 --> 00:44:38.545
And in the case that you're describing, that's that resilience requirement and I like it.

00:44:38.545 --> 00:44:40.628
I mean the issue that we've faced.

00:44:40.628 --> 00:44:43.802
I'll just speak for the International Telling Underground Space Association.

00:44:43.802 --> 00:44:47.521
As you mentioned, I happen to be the president, so I am being presidenty now.

00:44:48.115 --> 00:45:02.355
We're really troubled that inappropriate use of tools developed for buildings that are in the sustainability space don't capture the performance of underground infrastructure.

00:45:02.355 --> 00:45:15.628

165 - Best Practice vs. Appropriate Practice with Arnold Dix

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