March 5, 2025
191 - Committee participation with Birgitte Messerschmidt and Kees Both
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This episode explores the invaluable contributions of community participation in fire safety technical committees. Joining committees is not just about sharing expertise; it’s a journey that transforms careers and fosters growth. Our guests, Birgitte Messerschmidt and Kees Both, reveal how their experiences in various committees, including the NFPA, ISO, ASTM and CEN, have shaped their professional paths.
As we dive deeper into the intricacies of committee politics, our guests candidly share the challenges and rewards of engaging in this important work. They emphasize how participating in committees enhances one's career and contributes to the greater good by improving fire safety standards. This is an essential discussion for any engineer, especially those starting their careers, as they navigate the complexities of working with diverse stakeholders.
If you just felt inspired to join a committee, please look here:
- https://www.sfpe.org/membership-communities/standingcommittees
- https://www.nfpa.org/for-professionals/codes-and-standards/standards-development/technical-committees/committees-seeking-members
- https://www.cencenelec.eu/get-involved/small-and-medium-enterprises-smes/tools-for-smes/getting-involved/
Or just shoot us an email, or reach out at LinkedIn. We will help you out!
Fire Science Show has been named the top podcast in Fire Protection and Safety by Feedspot. Check the list below, and you will also discover a lot more podcasts in our space!
https://podcast.feedspot.com/fire_protection_and_safety_podcasts/
Thank you for your continuous support, and to the OFR for making it possible to create this content!
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01:22 - Introduction
03:09 - Importance of Giving Back to the Community
41:06 - Personal Stories of Committee Participation
01:03:02 - The Journey Begins: Joining Committees
01:40:56 - Welcome Birgit Messerschmidt and Keith Spoth
04:03:08 - Overview of Committee Experiences
06:36:36 - Final Thoughts and Encouraging Participation
10:01:22 - The Value of Networking in Committees
15:12:58 - Learning from Committee Discussions
WEBVTT
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Hello everybody, welcome to the Fire Science Show.
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Giving back to community is something most of us would like to do.
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I think even all of us would like to do.
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My way of giving back is through the podcast, papers and other activities, but for many people, the way they would prefer to give back to the community is through participation within different bodies that create the body of knowledge that we all use and benefit from later, be it standardization committees, technical committees, advisory boards and so forth, and actually I've been asked multiple times to cover the subject of participating in those committees.
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For example, I've received a very nice letter from a listener, kevin Feek, who described his participation in NFPA committees and how he changed his life, and I must say stories like this that someone has just joined the committee without any expectations and then it became a significant part of their lives is very common.
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I would say it's also my story.
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In 2012, I believe, I've joined the CEN, tc191, sc1, workgroup 5 and 9 committees, and that was something that really changed my life, my professional career.
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I was exposed to new knowledge, new people.
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I've met fantastic people, good friends and still in touch with them.
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So definitely it was something I've benefited from largely and I think it's worth talking about this and to talk about this subject, I've invited the person that I think is in every single committee that exists in this universe not just kidding, but he's definitely involved in in so many and in such a variety.
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It's really impressive.
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My good friend, keys both he's been a guest on this podcast before and alongside a colleague who I know that has been a part of many uh committees in europe, and now, behind the ocean, she's one of the directors at nfpa a good friend, bergitte messerschmidt, and together we'll try to tell you what were our journeys to different standardization and technical committees, what a researcher or an engineer can gain from participating in those and, in general, the goods and a bit of the bad sides of participating.
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And I'll spoil it a bit for you.
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It's definitely worth it.
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So let's spin the intro and jump into the episode.
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Welcome to the Firesize Show.
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My name is Wojciech Wigrzyński and I will be your host.
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This podcast is brought to you in collaboration with Ofar Consultants, a multi-award winning independent consultancy dedicated to addressing fire safety challenges.
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Colleagues are on a mission to continually explore the challenges that fire creates for clients and society, applying the best research experience and diligence for effective, tailored solution.
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In 2025, there will be new opportunities to work with OFR.
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Ofr will grow its team once more and is keen to hear from industry professionals who would like to collaborate on fire safety features this year.
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Get in touch at OFRConsultantscom.
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Hello everybody, I am joined here today by Birgit Messerschmidt, director at NFPA.
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Hey, birgit.
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Hey Wojciech, Nice to be back.
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Welcome back and another comeback to the show.
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Unsuccessful bridge salesman who entered the fire laboratory and never left it, Keith Spoth.
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Hey Keith, Hello Jack, Can I have a good day?
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Nice to be back as well.
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Thank you guys for joining me on this podcast episode and this was requested by audience multiple times since I started my podcast journey and we will be talking about community participation.
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A lot of people are asking to cover this part of our community.
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There are a lot of ways for our engineers can give back to the community and I believe participating in various technical committees that exist in our space is one way of giving back and I would love to give it a thorough discussion about pros and cons of participating and how to do it.
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But to settle the playing field, what committees you are or were a part of, let's try to list them and please make it like less than five minutes.
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Birgit, maybe we'll start with you and he makes his mind off the endless list of committees.
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Okay, well, I'm no longer active in standardization committees.
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The interesting thing is, as one of the people working at NFPA, I cannot be active in the NFPA standardization committees.
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We support them with the work that we do in research.
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When the technical committees have things they want us to look at, then we look at it and provide the answer back, but I cannot vote on NFPA standards as an NFPA employee.
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That's interesting yeah.
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So that's some of the interesting parts of that.
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So I actually haven't been active in committees for more than eight years, but before that I was very active in committees.
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I started out early in my career.
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So I started out in Danish standards in the mirror committee to SENT-TC-127.
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And from there I became a member of SENT-TC-127, particularly the working group on reaction to fire I think it's working group four I don't know if they've changed names since and also into ISO-TC-92, subcommittee one, also on reaction to fire, was active there, later also in subcommittee three on smoke toxicity, and then I've been active in a notified bodies group etc.
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That's what I can think of right now that I've been active in so long story short CN committees and ISO committees for fire safety engineering and now, even though you're not a member, a lot of knowledge on NFPA committees.
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Definitely some knowledge on that.
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yes, and a kiss for you, thank you.
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And Birgitta was just a bit ahead of me, although she's a bit younger than I am.
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She paved the path and I've always sort of admired what she had been doing.
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So at a certain point there was when I switched jobs from the flyer laboratory and went to the dark side of industry, so to speak.
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One of my, say, mentors there was a guy, stefan van Houten, and I think Birgitte knows him well, and I was about to step into his footsteps and he was also in CEN not necessarily in ISO or in US standards and I had a bit of a free roll when I came, managed the laboratory and so forth and gradually I rolled into CEN standards.
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It was not unknown to me.
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I did partake in some other Dutch standards committees in SEND, but not so much.
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So when I started this adventure I call it an adventure I was like okay, there's a new world sort of opening for me.
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A lot of people from the network were already there, but I also came to know a lot of other people with very different opinions.
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And if I can say one thing to make people enthusiastic about this, it's certainly a stepping stone to build your network or to meet people basically, and that's if standardization is anything.
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It's about meeting people from different cultures with different opinions, different views on, say, a definition of what, for example, a rate of heat release actually is, and then we should measure it.
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So that's a whole new world that sort of opened to me.
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And one thing that I learned was that, okay, we are far advanced, we think, in Europe, but a small step that would be to ISO standards, and from there it was not too difficult to explain to my superiors that it would also be of interest to watch what the Americans are doing.
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And I had already one say nice experience in NFPA.
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I must say 502, and Brigetti, you know it well, it's tunnels and as you know, I have one specific hobby, or a tunnel vision, if you like.
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So it was NFPA 502 that really inspired me also to say, well, guys, what NFPA is doing, what ASTM are doing and what UL are doing, that's of interest also to what we're doing here in Europe, if not the global community.
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And then one thing sort of escalated I started to become an active member in ASTM, expanded the NFPA to 550 and 1700.
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Actually, as we speak, 1700 is meeting this week but unfortunately it can come to the US.
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So I'm in a number of ASTM committees as well and because of my, say, love and appetite for this and FIRE soon, I was asked also to do something on, say, fiber cement and gypsum, and then it sort of exploded.
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So okay, a good overview of the committees.
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Uh, especially that you have this astm nfp experience firsthand.
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I I appreciate that.
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I knew that you and cn are very close together and I personally been part of cn but I was a part of groups for smoke control and that was was a big part of my life Still is important to me, but not active that much for the recent years.
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And outside of technical committees standardization committees I also participate in adventures like SFP technical committees, for example, rewriting the risk guidebook.
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That's very important.
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That's going to be a standard actually soon.
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And I also participated in networks like COST, which is some sort of committees for scientists perhaps different way of collaborating, but the same concept.
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You put punch people in a room to convene on important stuff.
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So, having this in mind, this decades of experience we shared together in those standardization committees Kis, you said it's networking.
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So for a young person that just enters the room, how does participating in committee provide you a networking opportunity?
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How does it translate to your network really?
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So I would think that well, for example, you mentioned SFPE right.
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So that would be predominantly a network of peers.
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So you would meet other professional engineers or consultants In CEN or in ISO or NFPA, for example.
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It would be a bit broader.
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So you would be more exposed to other stakeholders, whether it's producers, like I am, or a fire laboratory or a certification body or the standards bodies themselves.
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So you might meet Brigitte, although she might be a guest and not partaking actually in the meetings, so you would meet people from the fire brigade.
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You would meet all kinds of people who would not necessarily be sitting as a VE-member or another, say, say, association.
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You would also be well exposed to other narratives and things that people say, because they have different agendas, obviously, when they speak as peers and direct colleagues amongst each other, or when they have to, say, make make clear what the position of a certain stakeholder group actually actually is.
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So it's it's about meeting different people, not necessarily also from different countries.
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So when you are an SFP member, you also meet people from different countries, but you really see people coming from a different approaching.
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I would say the diamond from a different angle and then see the slinkering and slunkering from a different angle.
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So that's how I would like to say standardization work is actually part of looking at a problem from different perspectives and trying to solve it from different stakeholder perspective.
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But how would that be different from a conference?
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Let's say you also meet different people with different viewpoints on conference.
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Would this setting be different to a conference?
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You wouldn't necessarily have a goal right.
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So a conference is about meeting people and more or less a one-way direction of what, exposing the audience to new findings, and you can have some critique on it, obviously, but it doesn't necessarily come to, it's not necessarily with an aim to come at a, a standard, so a common agreement on how to move things forward.
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So conferences have their their part, obviously, but it's it's a different aim that you have.
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It's a very different aim just to jump in there.
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Also, a standardization committee group is smaller than a conference.
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There's a lot of people and who am I going to connect with?
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From my own experience?
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I mean, I came into standardization very early in my career and one of the things is you walk into the room as a very young one with people who are very, very experienced, and that is a great opportunity to learn from people that have that experience that yourself you're not there yet.
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So it's a great opportunity to connect with people that have that kind of experience that you're looking to gain.
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It's also, as Kees was saying, the fact that you're working on something together and often when you come in as one of the young ones in the technical committees, it's often because you have worked on some research that is needed by the technical committee.
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This is actually your opportunity to show your work to some of the people in power within FIRE and connect with them and show them what it is you've been working on and then enjoy seeing that what you have worked on now makes it into the process of where it becomes usable to people out in the field.
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That is really what I see as some of the extremely fascinating points as being some of the young ones stepping in to the standards committees.
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I think you both nailed it and I can relate this from my experience.
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It was exactly what Keith said meeting people with a common goal.
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So it's not like, while I enjoy conference settings, for sure, everyone there comes with their own ideas, problems, their own focus.
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In the committee group, you are sorted by focus, like everyone shares the same focus.
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Everyone is interested in this one particular problem for which the committee is, and if you're not, you are sorted by focus.
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Like everyone shares the same focus.
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Everyone is interested in this one particular problem for which the committee is, and if you're not, you probably should not be on the committee.
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So everyone has this common denominator for everything you say.
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And like you said I resonate with that very strongly that as a young researcher, you start to feel relevancy of your own work and also you know you can prove yourself and present some really valuable insight into the committee.
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But you're also pre-validated.
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If you're in the committee, you've already been vetted.
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You know that you will be an important member of that committee, like my experience is whenever a new person came into the group.
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It's not that the person sits on the edge of the table and then listens to the conversations for the next five meetings until they become relevant.
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They are relevant from day one.
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Was this your experience also, Kies, when you were joining new committees?
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Yes, absolutely, and I would well.
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Perhaps it's a bit, I don't know, pushy to say it, but you perhaps even have an obligation to share your knowledge, not only on the conference, because there people will be eagerly absorbing the knowledge that you bring to the table, but then to take it to the next level and make sure that it's somewhere embedded in regulations or standards.
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And whatever a standard actually is.
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It can be a fire engineering standard, it can be a testing standard, it can be both.
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You could argue and make a case that whatever you bring to the table, as a young researcher you have some obligation to see it true to the actual embedding in everyday use of engineers or who else is using it in the field.
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So that's something to bear in mind.
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And for that to happen you can't just only present at a conference.
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You also make sure that it's well heard of, at least make it aware to people in SAN and ISO and NFPA and whatnot.
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And you'll be surprised and Birgitte, you can vouch for this because I entered a bit later You'd be surprised as to how much you will be welcomed as a young engineer.
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But all of the old people like us, us now we can say that you made the joke before we start the recording.
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Right, all of us fall in love with the youngsters who come with with their research to the table.
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We've all been there so we know what it's like basically a part of the reason is also that there's it's a lot of work to do in the committee, especially when you have to supply this technical supplementary material to guide the decisions.
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So while the meeting can take you one, two, three days, it sometimes takes weeks or months preparing for the meeting with the material.
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And if you can drop this on a youngster, all of us have a lot on our tables.
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If there's someone willing to do the job, I'm not going to stop them.
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I will look into that job, but I will allow them, I will give them this ability to showcase their abilities while creating good technical feedback to guide the decisions.
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And I think this presenting and discussing this during a committee meeting is very different than the conference.
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In conference, you know you present, you have five questions in the end.
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They can be nice questions, they can be bad questions, it doesn't matter.
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It takes you five minutes to answer.
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You go eat your dinner and move on to something else.
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On the committee, you can spend three hours talking about the simulation In the absolute deepest details and you really learn a lot from those conversations.
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If I could tell you the anecdote, maybe not now, but we've had like two or three years of meetings well, not obviously a thousand days, but three years of meetings on two words and an or relating to deflection and deflection rate as to load-bearing capacity criteria.
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Can you imagine three years on this?
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And when I say it like this, you're like okay, I hope people are not switching off from the broadcast now Because there's a story to tell.
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One other thing to add to this what people learn and hand it over then to Brigitte you learn additional skills as a youngster, because to convince your peers of your scientific work, that's one thing, but to convince people who are not so scientific or have a completely different viewpoint, you need argumentation skills, you need to listen and you need to argue and to repeat that with different words.
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It's a really good point there that you're making.
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You have to really learn how to present to all kinds of different people in the technical committee and you can spend so much time on one word.
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And when you come in as a young researcher it's like well, I've done all this research and I know this is right from what I've worked on.
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It can be tough suddenly to get that kind of feedback and discussion that suddenly drills down into a nitty gritty little thing where you go like why is this important?
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A nitty gritty little thing where you go like why is this important?
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And this is where your patience has to come in play and understand the role that the standards are playing and the importance of the standard Because it's.
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One thing is that you come in with the technical and the technical research and all that is correct and so on, but the role that the standards play in the world is so much bigger and therefore suddenly, is it an and or an or?
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It can be market share, and for a young researcher to accept that and understand that is a learning process that is extremely important and that is where try not to lose your patience with the standard process but actually start enjoying seeing that well, when I take my work from here, from the pure technical, bring it into a group of very different people that are going to try and make this into a standard, it suddenly becomes psychological as well.
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Yeah, I have also this experience joining the technical committee as a very young engineer.
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At that point I was not a scientist yet and I was very let's say, I was actually quite experienced in designing systems, but in my own country, you know, following a very specific set of rules and ways of how to design that were very specific for my country.
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And then I am dropped into a group of various people coming from different backgrounds, coming from different countries, with their own ideas how to design systems, and apparently their systems are very different than mine.
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You know, things that I take for granted in my systems may not necessarily be relevant to theirs, you know so I have to now look at everything I do from a different lens that actually there are other ways to do it, there are other ways to understand that there are things that I consider most important.
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For someone other it's not, and we're writing a common standard that's like European standard, that it should share all those perspectives.
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It was very interesting because that was the first real environment in which I was really exposed to those differences.
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Perhaps, if you're like I am a FSE student and you have this multicultural you know experience of traveling across Europe, studying with other people.
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Perhaps that's the group of people that already immediately has this.
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But for me, an engineer coming from Poland, that was very interesting to discover.
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If anyone can tell, it's you on the call now because you have the experience coming from Denmark and moving to the US where you think, ah, it's also a Western civilized country, but the modus operandi is quite different, even to become a member, say, of NFPA, or ASTN for that matter.
00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:32.653
But that's a nuance perhaps.
00:21:32.653 --> 00:21:34.525
But the building codes are different.
00:21:34.525 --> 00:21:39.758
The way people's stakeholders are addressed and how they communicate is different.
00:21:39.758 --> 00:21:43.248
So maybe you can shed some light on that, because it might be of interest.
00:21:43.849 --> 00:22:13.118
Well again, as not being an active member of NFPA committees because I don't have that practical experience from it, but from seeing it in functions from the other side, I do see the significant difference to the work that we are doing in Europe and in CEN and where in CEN you come in through your national standards committees and therefore whoever participates is designed by your national standards committee.
00:22:13.785 --> 00:22:31.921
They can agree on a balance or not, and then when it gets into the CEN committee, suddenly you can have a committee that might be very heavy on one side and not other opinions as much, because there's not an overarching look at how this committee combined.
00:22:31.921 --> 00:22:47.336
At NFPA we are very much about a balanced committee, so there's not more than one third of a committee can come from one specific group and we do look into that, we are very clear about that and I think that makes a huge difference in the work.
00:22:47.336 --> 00:22:48.730
What do we mean by one group?
00:22:48.730 --> 00:22:58.394
That can be manufacturers, it can be authorities having jurisdiction, it can be consumers, it can be test laboratories etc.
00:22:58.394 --> 00:23:03.781
So we have nine different categories and none of those can have more than one third.
00:23:04.182 --> 00:23:04.845
That's very interesting.
00:23:05.586 --> 00:23:18.250
And I think that is extremely interesting and an important difference because I must admit, like KS now is representing, as you said, the dark side, industry I did for many years as well.
00:23:18.250 --> 00:23:28.233
I did standardization, first from DBI, so the neutral side, and then for Rockwall for many years dark side of industry.
00:23:28.233 --> 00:23:35.855
So I know both sides of this and I know why industry has a significant interest in the standardization work.
00:23:35.855 --> 00:23:46.816
But it also, through experience, have been sitting in committees where we've been too many industry people and not enough people from, for instance, the laboratories or from research organizations.
00:23:46.816 --> 00:23:52.602
You know where we could have these young researchers coming in with the information that we needed.
00:23:52.602 --> 00:24:07.914
Between the process that we're running here compared to the process that we're running in Europe, and then, just generally, as I've said before, right in the US, I always thought that coming over here must be easier.
00:24:07.914 --> 00:24:12.017
One country, we would have just one regulation, et cetera.
00:24:12.184 --> 00:24:16.452
It's like no, no no it's more complicated because each state does their own thing.
00:24:16.724 --> 00:24:25.373
Brigitte took me into, like she twisted the question, but she brought me into a very important subject of matter, which is how you become a part of a committee.
00:24:25.373 --> 00:24:31.009
So you said, cn, you get nominated by your national committee and you're kind of a representative of your country.
00:24:31.009 --> 00:24:34.583
You could consider yourself like that In NFPA.
00:24:34.583 --> 00:24:36.351
How do you become a member of a committee?
00:24:37.152 --> 00:24:44.993
You go on our website and go in and see what you know apply to become a member and then you're appointed by our standards council.
00:24:44.993 --> 00:24:50.414
So it goes to them and they appoint, and that's where they then can see well, actually in this committee.
00:24:50.414 --> 00:24:58.294
Now, if KS wanted to go into a committee and this committee is already has a heavy load of manufacturers it would be able.
00:24:58.294 --> 00:25:01.513
At the moment, there is not a seat available in this group.
00:25:03.385 --> 00:25:09.138
So it would be like pushing yourself forward and then you're assessed whether you're a good match for the committee.
00:25:09.138 --> 00:25:12.454
So I would say SFP committees are very similar.
00:25:12.454 --> 00:25:18.337
If you're a member of SFP, there are multiple technical committees that you can apply for.
00:25:18.337 --> 00:25:23.334
You send an email to the admin of that group, you get evaluated and eventually you get in.
00:25:23.334 --> 00:25:27.876
If a completely new committee forms, they often would scout for members.
00:25:28.105 --> 00:25:31.770
That's how I remember this risk what NFPA also does.
00:25:31.770 --> 00:25:36.892
So the committee actively searching new yeah, but especially when the new forms.
00:25:37.746 --> 00:25:40.134
So you need a first group of people to form a committee.
00:25:40.134 --> 00:25:46.055
So then it's probably the easiest to join, and for ISO, I believe it's also a national nomination.
00:25:47.411 --> 00:25:48.679
Yes, same as POSEN.
00:25:48.679 --> 00:26:02.871
Well, maybe it's nice if I may get to advertise a bit for ASTM, because they also have this balance of, I think, nine stakeholder groups and they carefully monitor that there's not an unbalance in this.
00:26:02.871 --> 00:26:10.515
But you can always become a member, but you are not granted voting rights, so you're the backbencher, so to speak.
00:26:10.515 --> 00:26:14.747
But that gives you access to all the meetings and to everything At NFPA.
00:26:14.747 --> 00:26:18.070
You can always be invited as a guest, so that will be my first step.
00:26:18.070 --> 00:26:21.215
That's actually how I entered NFPA 502.
00:26:21.215 --> 00:26:22.405
As a guest.
00:26:22.405 --> 00:26:23.087
So that would be my first step.
00:26:23.087 --> 00:26:24.491
That's actually how I entered NFPA 502.
00:26:24.511 --> 00:26:27.179
So I was asked by the then chair of the NFPA 502 committee to appear as a guest, so I was.
00:26:27.179 --> 00:26:38.432
Then the meeting room was too small, I was literally a backbencher, but soon I was promoted to the table when someone had to leave early, so I was allowed to literally sit at the table.
00:26:38.432 --> 00:26:40.438
But it starts there.
00:26:40.438 --> 00:26:52.286
You have to be a bit bold and brave and and just to come to mention it, perhaps forget that may be a role that that you and I and maybe some others can play as well, like mentors or younger people that are entering for the first time.
00:26:52.286 --> 00:26:53.007
In a comedy.
00:26:53.007 --> 00:27:05.333
It would be good that comedies have like a mentor that that would allow people, freshmen or fresh ladies, to enter a a committee and to give them a bit of guidance how to behave, where to sit, what not to do.
00:27:05.834 --> 00:27:08.146
I think that's a really, really good point, kees.
00:27:08.146 --> 00:27:10.073
I think that is truly needed.
00:27:10.073 --> 00:27:19.518
I've been lucky through my career to have some mentors when I was younger in my colleagues and that truly helped me in the standardization work.
00:27:19.518 --> 00:27:28.395
But I think some of the points you point out, casey, about the openness of the way that US do standardization is very different from Europe.
00:27:28.395 --> 00:27:29.770
Also, anyone can comment.
00:27:29.770 --> 00:27:32.534
Anyone can send comments to an NFPA standard.
00:27:32.534 --> 00:27:34.592
It's a totally open process.
00:27:34.592 --> 00:27:37.875
Just go on the website, see where the standards are.
00:27:37.875 --> 00:27:41.255
Every standard is being revised every three to five years.
00:27:41.255 --> 00:27:47.690
You can go in and see where it is in the cycle and if there's open for comments, everybody can send in comments.
00:27:48.291 --> 00:27:50.057
We have the same in SFP.
00:27:50.057 --> 00:28:02.227
All the outcomes of those committees would go through public questions period where anyone can read the standard, Even though if the standard will cost or the book will cost $200 after it's being published.
00:28:02.227 --> 00:28:06.729
They just give the draft version for free for everyone to comment, to gather feedback.
00:28:06.729 --> 00:28:17.856
You know it's also a good way to familiarize yourself with documents and understand where the world is moving towards, and also a stepping foot, you know, for future engagements.
00:28:17.856 --> 00:28:25.731
So if you're commenting really well, I would assume you would eventually be invited to the committee because you have smart things to say, right?
00:28:26.173 --> 00:28:28.993
Exactly, or you can just participate as a guest.
00:28:28.993 --> 00:28:34.946
If you've commented and you can come in as an observer, connect with.
00:28:34.946 --> 00:28:37.192
It's open on our website.
00:28:37.192 --> 00:28:41.070
Who is the chair, who is the staff liaison from NFPA and who's the member of the?
00:28:41.070 --> 00:28:46.777
Is the staff liaison from NFPA and who is the member of the committee and you can contact them, say I have some things I would like to present to the committee, et cetera.
00:28:46.777 --> 00:28:53.750
So it has fascinated me to see how open the process is compared to the experience that I've had in Sandvik.
00:28:53.924 --> 00:28:55.151
And nevertheless manageable.
00:28:55.151 --> 00:29:00.176
So it's very open indeed, but nevertheless it seems manageable.
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