March 18, 2025
193 - Fire Fundamentals pt. 15 - Extinguishing systems with Bogdan Racięga
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Welcome to another Fire Fundamentals. This time the episode is focused on various extinguishing technologies. Invited guest - Bogdan Racięga, Director at Baltic Fire Laboratory and expert in fire protection systems breaks down the fundamental differences between suppression and extinction technologies and how they work in real-world applications.
- Clear distinction between suppression systems (control fires while meeting temperature criteria) and extinction systems (must completely extinguish fires)
- Types of fire protection systems including water-based (sprinkler, water mist), foam, aerosol, and gas systems (no fire-balls :))
- Technical parameters affecting performance: K-value, nominal working pressure, RTI, discharge areas
- Areas of application, eg. why water mist systems can often be preferred for high-rise buildings due to smaller piping and reduced weight
- How temperature ratings and RTI affect sprinkler activation timing and performance
- Challenges with concealed sprinklers including maintenance issues and delayed activation
- Testing procedures for water distribution patterns and certification processes
- Differences between high-pressure and low-pressure systems in various applications
- nuances related to the role of an accredited laboratory (ISO 17025) and a certification body (ISO 17065)
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Transcript
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Hello and welcome to the Fire Science Show.
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Last week we had fire fundamentals and guess what?
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This week we're talking fire fundamentals once again.
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Last week we've talked about jet fan systems and ventilation and today I'm venturing in the world as far from that as possible.
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Well, maybe not that far.
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Actually, I'm switching the theme from air to water or to other extinguishing agents.
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From air to water or to other extinguishing agents and in this episode of Fire Science Show we will cover the basics of suppression and extinguishing technologies out there.
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So we will talk about water-based systems, we'll talk a little bit about other types of extinguishing systems that you can find out there and obviously I'm not an expert.
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I feel comfortable talking about jet fans, pressurization or any sort of smoke control for you, but I'm definitely not an expert in any suppression or extinguishing applications.
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I even mix the terms.
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So I've invited an expert that I know and I respect highly my good colleague, Bogdan Racięga.
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Bogdan is a director at the Baltic Fire Laboratory, chairman of the scientific council at the International Water Misassociation and a member of numerous NFPA panels, like 750, 502 or 409.
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And the Baltic Fire Laboratory it's the laboratory in Poland that specializes in testing suppression and extinguishing applications, and I've been there multiple times.
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I've seen the experiments out there.
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It's very impressive and definitely, definitely they've gained a huge body of knowledge on how those systems work.
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In this podcast episode we will go a little bit deeper into how they work, but really the point is to recap the fundamentals, to test the point of fire fundamentals.
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Let's recap the fundamentals and learn the basic differences between the systems.
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What are the parameters that characterize the systems?
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How do those parameters turn into actions on buildings?
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Why would you care about pressure?
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Why would you care about discharge?
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How does it change the outcomes on the fire?
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How do you choose the correct application for the problem at your hand?
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These are the things that I wanted Bongdan to cover and I think he quite well delivered that.
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So even if you're an expert in suppression or extinguishing, this episode should have some good nuggets of knowledge even for you.
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And if you're coming to the world of fire from structural engineering, mechanical engineering, chemical engineering you're not a fire safety engineer but yet you have to work with the fire problem and you have not really been exposed to those extinguishing systems, this is an episode for you that will give you a kickstart into the profession and cover the basics for you, so I'm really proud to introduce you to this episode.
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I hope you will have a good time listening to it.
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Let's spin the intro and jump into the episode.
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Welcome to the fire science.
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My name is Wojciech Wigrzyński and I will be your host.
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Get in touch at ofrconsultantscom.
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Hello everybody.
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I am here today with my good friend, bogdan racenga from baltic fire laboratory.
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Hello, bogdan, good to have you in the podcast again.
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Hello, boy checking.
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Thank you for invitation again.
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Yeah, thanks, man.
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I so many times in my life when I said I'm having extinction.
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You've corrected me I'm having suppression, so I thought that perhaps let's clear this once and for all on air.
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But really there's so many nuances around sprinklers and extinguishing and suppressions that I believe a lot of people will benefit from learning.
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But let's start with that one like extinction versus suppression.
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Why the hell are you correcting me all the time, bogdan?
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Yeah, exactly, because, especially in our Polish language, there's not exactly a word about the suppression system.
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The people are saying extinguishing system, extinction system.
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So in our laboratory, when we are testing this active fire protection system, we have clear differences between the extinguishing system and the separation system.
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So, in very short words, the extinguishing system is a system which must extinguish the fire in the specific time.
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If this time is like 15 minutes, 30 minutes, you need to achieve the full extinguishing of the fire which is in the specific place, the most probably in our enclosures.
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And this is the extinguishing system.
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And the suppression system has a specific time to achieve specific suppression criteria.
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This suppression criteria means ceiling temperature and the damage of the object which is in the fire Actually makes sense.
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So extinction would be like getting rid of the fire completely, and suppression would be minimizing the outcomes of the fire, correct?
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And then you have the specific application.
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I give you example for that.
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So the extinguishing system we are using mainly in the machinery space turbine enclosures.
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So then the system is dealing with the fire itself.
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You do not counting on any fire brigade or any crew in this factory, on this marine vessel, for example.
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So the system inside the laboratory is tested in such a way that it's able to kill this fire within 15 minutes.
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If you are, for example, telling about the IMO 1165 test methods for the total flooding.
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Then the suppression system, like we have the systems with the sprinkler and the water mist in the hotels, for example.
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So this system has some limits on the ceiling in terms of the temperature.
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We can divide the fire tests to the reference tests with the sprinkler and the water mist.
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Then the sprinkler system we are running first.
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This is a test that is making a base for our test criteria for the water mist system and the water mist system in terms of the temperature on the ceiling shall be on the same level or better, and the damages on the object, like the office desk and the sofa, should be in better results.
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It means the damage with the water mist must be less.
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Like the sprinkler.
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There are as well some test protocols that you mist must be less like the sprinkler.
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There are as well there's some test protocol that you do not need to run the sprinkler system when you are testing the water mist system.
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So there, you have clearly defined the temperature on the ceiling that you cannot cross and the damage on the object which is in the fire, and this is suppression.
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It means after 30 minutes, still you have the fire, but you are going to terminate the test.
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I'm going to be called a lobbyist, but I always wondered why sprinkler systems do not require a reference.
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What are these tests to compare them to?
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And perhaps that's not good Damage.
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We'll go back into the systems because that's on the long list of questions they have for you.
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But you mentioned damage to the items around the sprinklers or whatever device is operating.
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So what do you actually mean by saying limiting damage?
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How do you assess the damage?
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How does it look in the experiment?
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Yeah, okay.
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So let's fix to the object which is in the fire, which is the sofa.
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Okay, it consists of the two sofas, which is like the eight materats, and we have the sidewall test, for example, where we have the sofa in the fire and after 30 minutes the sofa cannot be burned more than 40% of the total volume.
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So after the fire tests, we have the special technique as a laboratory to measure this 40%.
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If we are above, it means failure and if we are below, it means pass.
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And I guess every different protocol that you test for would have its own criteria.
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I remember when I was visiting your laboratory, you were having this vehicle mock-up and you had some wood planks next to the vehicle.
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Yes, so these were the damage targets for assessments Correct.
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So in this test which you've seen, it was IMO 1430 with the passenger vehicle which representing the fire, or the car on the 2.5 meter ceiling, which is quite low, as we discussed, and inside there was the 12 pallets.
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In this test the damage itself on the pallets is not counted, it's counted the temperature on the ceiling.
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And then important in this test is if the targets, which was on the left and on the right, the play woods, are ignited or not.
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And then this information, if the play woods are ignited or not, for the lab is a challenge as well sometimes to found, because the wood, despite is wet by the water, may burn within 400 Celsius even.
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I knew it's a good idea to bring you to the podcast, and the stuff that we're discussing right now is so important to engineers to understand what is behind the numbers.
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Like, people very rarely know what does fire resistance of 30 minutes really mean unless they've seen a fire test in a fire laboratory or have a very specific methodology to assess that this particular device is fit for actually quite a representative scenario of hazard.
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Do scenarios like that like they really exist for almost any accommodation?
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Like every time you see a different sprinkler type, it means there's a specific test describing the fire for a specific location and it has to go to protocol, or it's like I don't know.
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Uh, they use tests for car parks as I say, okay, this is gonna be fit for, I don't know, changing rooms and and bicycle storage and and metro stations.
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How does it work?
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okay, so I I will go in such way with the sprinklers.
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You are mainly have this value of the millimeters of the water in the square meter which you have, the value for the specific hazard and you can follow with this value, okay, okay.
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Okay, I explain this the best, I think, with reference to the performance-based system.
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It means the water mists.
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Why it will be better?
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Because when you have the fire in the office and the fire in the car park, those are the two different fires and, of course, the car park is the most challenging one comparing to the office, because of the quantity of the fuel load which you have in the office or in the hotel, for example, nozzle or sprinkler head which is dedicated for the car park or dedicated for the office.
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The quantity of the water for the car park is much higher because it's related to the density, yeah, so oh2, like for the sprinklers, 80 millimeters per square meter in the europe which is quite common.
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It's a kind of value for the water-based system.
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Sprinkler with the water mist is different because, again, you have the reference tests with the sprinkler system and after you are creating your pass-fail criteria based on the sprinkler test.
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So where the water mist system if it's high pressure or if it's low pressure.
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In the car parks the density comparing to the OH1 commodity, like in the office, is much, much higher.
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And it's important as well in those tests that in the car parks, for example, the area of the operation, call it the most demanding area, it's 144 square meters.
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And in the OH1 spaces it's like 72 square meters.
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It means in our tests we are testing the system and there are specific heads sprinkler heads or water mist heads which can operate during the test and if some of the heads will operate outside of the specific ring, the test is failed.
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It means this justifies you that the system was able to stop the fire spread and the temperature are maintaining very well on the ceiling so you have also like reference things, like the areas like the flow rates, uh discharge values that allow you to generalize some, some concept, and still, I would assume, those uh correlation that you need.
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This particular oh2 setting for carport comes from experience and testing.
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Yes, um, we brought up many names for those different systems, so perhaps let's clean this up a little bit.
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I don't think I've had such discussion in Fire Science Show yet.
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So we were talking about Sprint, we were talking about Watermist.
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Let's clean it up.
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What types of systems extinction or suppression systems, what kind of systems are there on the market that that the fire engineers could meet in their jobs?
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okay, so generic, about the system which you can find everywhere.
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Of course.
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We have the water-based system.
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It means the sprinkler, the water mist.
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Then we have the foam system, which are helping us to fight with the pool fires, mainly areosol system, the system which are testing a lot now because of some changes on the market, gas system, like the clean agent inert guard system.
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So those are mainly those which I mentioned here, and each of them has a specific purpose and application as well.
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You cannot use each of the system to all the application, so the key point is to understand which system shall be addressed to your application.
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This is the most critical to understand and know the strong sides and the weak sides as well of those extinguishing or the suppression systems.
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You have not mentioned extinguishing balls.
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No, no, this is something that I'm struggling a lot because, from last to most, these extinguishing balls are called aerosol generators, because the aerosols are quite successful on the market and there could be serious competitions for the protection of some applications.
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So those guys are starting to tell that this is aerosol generator.
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It's completely not.
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Maybe it's bomb, but it's not the generator of aerosol definitely.
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No, definitely.
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Okay, good, so we would have water-based systems and we would have gas-based systems.
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We would have aerosol-based systems, A lot of stuff to choose and the basic differences between, let's say, the gas-based systems.
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We would have aerosol-based systems, a lot of stuff to choose and the basic differences between, let's say, the water-based systems.
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So I mean, it's obvious that water mist gives you mist or fog.
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The sprinklers give you this nice big spray of water.
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I think the fire engineers would intuitively understand that very well.
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And from a technical perspective, like on the technical properties when you design those systems, yes, what are the major differences?
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okay.
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So each sprinkler the water means we must divide to the open nozzles or bulb nozzles, correct automatic sprinkler.
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So this open nozzles, called the dilution theler world, are the systems which are connected with the dry pipe system.
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It means you have the electronic valve which is triggered by the fire detection system and then you are releasing the water for the specific protection those systems are common in protection of some industry parts like the conveyors, tunnels, tank protection by the cooling as a deluge system.
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So you have like 20 sprinklers on a pipe and they all go off together when the fire alarm tells them to do so.
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Exactly, I think that's what we do in tunnels, right.
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Yes, exactly, and you have the specific area and the quantity of these heads, because this is again connected with the area of the operation and the sizing of the pump.
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So you cannot run more than calculated sprinklers in specific zones because then you do not reach the pressure which is the nominal working pressure on the head.
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So when in the laboratory you have the nozzle on the sprinkler tested with the two bars, you must deliver the two bars during the fire, in the tunnel, for example.
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This is the critical value that the flow rate, together with the pressure and the curve value of the nozzle must be respected in case of the fire.
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That's why there are some safety factors on the design side added, despite the tests done in the laboratory and after the open nozzles.
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Of course we have the bulk system, very complex sprinklers with the bulbs inside glass bulb Depends on the sensitivity.
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You have this RTA number which is defining how fast are those bulbs.
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This can be the standard fast response or even super response for some very specific applications.
00:17:04.730 --> 00:17:07.067
And those sprinklers you can find in the hotels.
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There is digital buildings, storage areas, garages, commercial buildings, everywhere.
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Almost those are the most fun with sprinkler system.
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Come on.
00:17:14.650 --> 00:17:17.046
So this was about the sprinkler.
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Now the area where is the most challenging for me and interesting as well, because we are running 65% of the old tests with the Waterme system.
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So again the open nozzles.
00:17:29.444 --> 00:17:34.685
It means triggered by the fire detection system and they're connected with the dry pipe.
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All section is going in the same time and the quantity of the nozzles multiply by the flow rate, giving you this information what the pump's size should be.
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Typical application machinery space generators, tunnels, aircraft, hangars, turbine enclosures, specific hazards, like the other machinery spaces.
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So those are the open nozzles.
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Then the bulk nozzles, the water miss nozzles has mostly faster RTI because the nozzles are quite smaller.
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You have the low pressure system, you have the high pressure systems.
00:18:14.401 --> 00:18:21.134
So we've seen those water miss systems, especially on the marine from the 30 years because it was there.
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Now in the land are widely used because in the European 4972 just entered, like five years ago.
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So now the engineer is able to put in the technical building specification the standard.
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Previously it was challenging because there was no standard.
00:18:36.665 --> 00:18:45.787
So we've seen those systems in the hotels, residential buildings Again about the marine in all these public spaces, restaurants, cabins.
00:18:45.787 --> 00:18:49.164
So very similar application to the sprinkler.
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But there are some areas where the sprinkler are better and where the water miss are better.
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Example Warsaw is a great example because it's buildings have a high-pressure water system because of the hate to reach to the last floor and the water head automatically as well.
00:19:13.801 --> 00:19:15.040
Why would that be Okay?
00:19:15.040 --> 00:19:21.513
Because with the sprinkler system when you're protecting the high-size buildings you must be challenging this water head.
00:19:21.513 --> 00:19:33.500
It means your pump must deliver to the dry riser the most probably or there are the wet risers as well the specific pressure For the certifigular pumps for the certain value.
00:19:33.500 --> 00:19:36.105
It's impossible to reach more.
00:19:36.105 --> 00:19:41.961
Then you need to build inside of your floors the water tanks for the sprinkler system.
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With the water system you have one tank in the basement and one pump unit in the basement and you can protect all the building.
00:19:52.269 --> 00:20:08.847
And I know in the Warsaw the building which is the highest rise, which has 22,000 nozzles of the water nests, which is quite massive, and those are the two pump units in the basement and this is quite a nice project.
00:20:08.847 --> 00:20:16.171
This is a few in Warsaw quite prestigious projects and luckily in Warsaw is the highest building in the European Union as well.
00:20:17.101 --> 00:20:18.666
Half a meter taller than short.
00:20:18.666 --> 00:20:29.839
Yes, to your face, our British colleagues, we have a half a meter taller building, apparently not by accident Because of the antenna, because of the antenna only.
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:32.609
No, no, it's a structural part of the building.
00:20:32.609 --> 00:20:33.192
It's important.
00:20:33.192 --> 00:20:34.998
Okay, let's not go there.
00:20:34.998 --> 00:20:45.028
And also, for me, a difference that was obvious when I was talking with people like the difference between Splinkus and Watermist, for example, was with the piping.
00:20:45.028 --> 00:20:54.632
So, so every time it was brought up on the project, people oh, I would prefer, you know, a water mist because it has this, those nice little pipes and and not, uh, big pipes like, like sprinkles have.
00:20:54.632 --> 00:20:58.147
So perhaps let's talk, let's talk about that exactly.
00:20:58.147 --> 00:20:59.371
So it's those differences.
00:20:59.411 --> 00:21:23.868
Yeah, it's very good point for attack and, of course, with the water miss system, especially with the high pressure, you are able to drop the size of the pipes which delivering the water to the 38, 42 millimeters, maybe 60 millimeters as a main pipe which is just going from the basement to the 52 floor, but with the sprinkler system we are talking about 150 to 100 millimeters.
00:21:23.868 --> 00:21:31.167
And then we are going to the weight of all this system, which is a crazy with the sprinkler.
00:21:31.167 --> 00:21:42.086
So, as I told, the sprinkler is good for some application and the water mist is perfect for some and for the high-rise buildings the water is really perfect because we are saving a lot of material.
00:21:42.086 --> 00:21:47.987
Then, with the materials, you have the penetration between the bulkhead, between the walls, between the floors.
00:21:47.987 --> 00:21:58.517
So all these penetrations are extremely expensive as well and these penetration sizes are as well higher in terms of the price if you have the bigger penetration as well.
00:21:58.517 --> 00:22:01.650
So this is something that is really good.
00:22:01.859 --> 00:22:08.844
Okay, we will get argument, but the water mist system has the stainless steel pipes, which is expensive Anyhow.
00:22:08.844 --> 00:22:17.028
If you're comparing the weight of the system and the price of the stainless steel, comparing to the weight of the standard seal for the sprinkler installation.
00:22:17.028 --> 00:22:29.029
The water mist win anyhow with the price Because if we are talking about the 22,000 of the high-pressure water mist nozzles, it's a huge weight of the system.
00:22:29.029 --> 00:22:33.846
So anyhow, there will be a beneficial for the water mist systems.
00:22:35.484 --> 00:22:41.160
I know there's like this market battle between the water mist industry and the sprinkler industry.
00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:47.346
You see it every day on on real world projects, where people try to replace one solution with another, both.
00:22:47.346 --> 00:22:48.209
But I like that.
00:22:48.209 --> 00:22:52.667
There are technical merits at which you can discuss and technical merits at which you want.
00:22:52.667 --> 00:22:55.717
That is a challenging world, but I like that.
00:22:55.717 --> 00:23:04.351
There are, you know, technical properties of the systems that you are able to to compare the solutions and actually find one that fits best for your needs.
00:23:04.351 --> 00:23:04.550
Right?
00:23:04.550 --> 00:23:10.885
I was noting down, you know, when you were dropping, a technical term we have not explained yet and I have quite a list right now.
00:23:10.885 --> 00:23:18.594
There's nominal working pressures, k-values, rti, discharge areas, the most challenging location, and so on.
00:23:18.594 --> 00:23:21.128
So perhaps let's try and cover those.
00:23:21.128 --> 00:23:27.074
It's supposed to be an introductory episode, so let's try to go through the basics.
00:23:27.074 --> 00:23:30.630
So first let's talk about the nominal working pressures.
00:23:30.630 --> 00:23:37.670
You said that you would design for a nominal working pressure, but what does it mean and how much you can debate from that?
00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:38.540
Okay.
00:23:38.540 --> 00:23:59.271
So when we are testing those systems in the laboratory, there is the specific test for the sprinkler or the water mist where we have to maintain the nominal working pressure in the test, which is the minimum nominal working pressure that the nozzle in real life, in the real installation, must achieve.
00:23:59.271 --> 00:24:02.131
The most probably depends on the calculation.
00:24:02.131 --> 00:24:11.587
This nozzle is the most furthest nozzle in the section hydraulic section and some of the nozzles which are closer to the pump has higher pressure automatically.
00:24:11.587 --> 00:24:17.664
And about the deviation for the example, for the low pressure mists we have the 5% deviation.
00:24:17.664 --> 00:24:29.374
So during the test where we have the 5 bar or the 8 bar for the low pressure mist system, we cannot cross below minus 5% and the plus 5% during the entire test.
00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:35.353
The same high pressure systems what we've seen in our laboratory conditions.
00:24:35.353 --> 00:24:42.371
Sometimes it's better to maintain the pressure in the high pressure system because the high pressure system has piston pumps.
00:24:42.371 --> 00:24:45.369
It means the characteristics of these pumps are very linear.
00:24:45.369 --> 00:24:51.165
So you are able, depending on the RPMs on your pump, to set precisely the pressure.
00:24:51.165 --> 00:24:59.029
With the low pressure system and with the sprinkler system you have the certificular pumps which have the specific curve and characteristics of the pump.
00:24:59.029 --> 00:25:07.692
So we need to deal a little with this characteristic and some unload valve, pressure reduction valve, just to set correctly the pressure.
00:25:07.692 --> 00:25:24.232
So those are the main system and the nominal working pressure always must be the nominal pressure in the installation and during the commissioning of the system, when the system is to the authority, this must be checked on this most remote nozzle in the hydraulic section.
00:25:24.574 --> 00:25:28.690
if you achieve those, I assume that you cannot have it lower, but what happens if it's higher?
00:25:28.690 --> 00:25:30.788
Because if you're closer to the pump it must be higher.
00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:31.480
Okay.
00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:36.972
So if you are higher with the sprinkler system, you are delivering much more water.
00:25:36.972 --> 00:25:48.728
But the sprinkler system of course does not cross like the 10 bar or the 16 or the 20 bar, so we can assume that it's better because you have more water.
00:25:48.728 --> 00:26:07.181
Okay, in the low pressure system you have this specific five percent because the nozzle of the low pressure mist system are designed in such way, very precise way, that the spray pattern above some limits may change, which affect the test criteria.
00:26:07.181 --> 00:26:11.590
If you are above, okay, you are delivering as well much more water.
00:26:11.590 --> 00:26:16.307
It means for the test criteria can be better with the high pressure systems.
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